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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

I have a 1999 kia sportage 5 sp. 122K that sat for about four years in a field. I have worked all of the bugs out but one and it is driving me crazy. It cranks excessively only after it sits for about a half an hour after being fully warmed up.
The past couple mornings it has been in the single digits and it starts fine, five minutes after it sits it starts fine, the only problem is when it sits for about a half an hour, it takes about ten seconds of straight cranking to fire up. If you let off the key after about five seconds and come right back at it quickly, it will fire right up. After it starts, it runs great, lots of power, it you shut it off right after it just took ten seconds to start, it will start right up perfect.

So far I have swapped out the two relays under the hood from ones I found at the junk yard will no change in performance. I checked the voltage to that maf to see if it was full battery voltage and it was. I cleaned the ground by the battery and the fuel pump itself. The engine has new coils, plugs and wires. I have swapped out the water temp sensor with one from the junk yard because I was getting readings averaging 185 from my reader. Both sensors read the same, low, I don't understand, maybe it is my reader. I put a new super stant thermostat (195) in. Fuel filter was replaced a couple days ago. No check engine light. I ran some lucas fuel injector cleaner and some dry gas through the system.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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Sounds like the starting issues I was having. The cause of mine ended up being the Main and Fuel Pump relays. Since you got your replacements from a yard, those could be bad too. These relays are known to go bad when they get old, so I'd try a set of new ones. RockAuto Parts Catalog sells the current version of the OEM relays for $8 each. They are the yellow ones.
 

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+1 to Wolf's idea on replacing both relays with new,

and would recommend checking the Air Intake Temp (AIT) sensor, located on the top cover of the airbox (over the air filter) - this sensor can also degrade -> fail w/ age & affect fuel delivery by the ECM -> starting... I'd keep an eye on what it is reporting via ECM, and if the numbers look suspect, consider replacing this sensor as well.

re: 185 reported by ECM vs. 195 degree thermostat: I would not be too concerned over this, even if you live in a temperate climate: the Sporty has a very good cooling system, 183 - 187 is what I usually average here, both in summer and winter months, when warmed to normal operating temp.

( Only climbs above 190 degrees on ECM reported temp. under extended load or on very hot days (90+) when using A/C here, sitting parked running, or in line at Taco Bell.. :D

Regards,
GottaCruise
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the info guys

Today after I posted the first post I went to advance auto parts to get a new pair of relays. When I put them both in it would not start. I narrowed it down to the one on the passenger side not accepting the new relay. When I left the key on and installed the relay, it clicks but will not start. When I put one from the boneyard in, it clicks and then hums from somewhere. I thought maybe that the contacts could be a little thinner than the ones I pulled out so I used some needle nose pliers to close up the connectors a little to ensure a good contact, no change. So currently I am running one new one on the driver side, and one old one on the passenger side. This does not make any sense. The new ones are BWD, yellow, and say made in Korea.

Then on my way to school for my night class, the check engine light comes on. I had my code reader handy so I checked for the code, came up po135, for the oxygen sensor heater curcuit. If my understanding is correct, this is to heat the element up quicker so the system can change from relying on the maf, to using the oxygen sensor and does not affect driveability.

Then, on my way home from school (cleared the codes in the school parking lot), it was running great, started good because it was a three hour class and it sat for a while. Then when I went to get on the highway, the engine would not go above about 3250 on the tach, I didn't think I was going to make it home. I got off at the next exit and wanted to see if I could "clear it out." I started off in first and held it to the floor, the tach stayed just above three grand for as long as I let it. Then the check engine light started flashing. I pulled over to check the codes and I got a 135 and 141, both heater circuits.

After I got home, I decided to give it another try, it took off up the road great with a lot of power and I was able to wind it up to about three and a half no problem. Then it died on me a couple of times like the fuel pump was failing. After the engine would shut off, it will immediately start up again.

This thing does not make any sense. Maybe I am losing a shared ground? I will look at the schematics on the kia tech info website
 

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Those codes are because the O2 heater circuits are not working, which means the Fuel Pump Relay is not the correct relay, faulty, or the wiring has an issue ..

Wolf's relay thread w/ link to vendor:

http://www.kia-forums.com/1g-1994-2002-sportage/81869-resolved-2000-sportage-intermittent-starting-problems.html#post446186

Another relay thread:

http://www.kia-forums.com/1g-1994-2002-sportage/80534-2002-sportage-not-starting.html

Pics w/ diagram of correct (dual make) relay (thanks galf),

http://www.kia-forums.com/1g-1994-2002-sportage/74633-help-lets-get-thing-running-3.html

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All above said, it sounds like when you replaced the Fuel Pump relay, the ignition key was on - that may have caused the ECM to throw codes for the O2 heater circuit: if your scanner can reset codes, I would do so, otherwise with engine off / key out, I would disconnect the negative battery cable, turn on the headlights to drain all power from circuit, wait a minute, turn off headlights, and reconnect the neg. battery cable to reset the ECM,

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When installing relays / fuses, I would recommend disconnecting battery, engine off / key out as above to avoid any electrical issues (there should be no power supplied to the circuit when changing the relay(s)..

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If after making sure the corrrect relays are installed you are still having issues, post back, we'll try to help ..

Regards,
GottaCruise
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thank you for all of the great information. This morning, I pulled out the new relay (BWD yellow) and installed the original and reset the computer. Made it all the way to and from school, half hour each way, no problems, no light. My relays do not look like the ones in the pictures. I noticed one other thing. When I came out of class and it would not start, after about two seconds of cranking I let off the key and immediately went right back after it, started instantly, from past experience the only things that change that fast are electrical. I will be returning the relays to advance. I will first take the oem relays to my brother to look at, he is a electrical engineer raymonds, the forklift people. He said he will inspect and clean the contacts. If this does not work, I will order them from rock auto, really like their business. Just an interesting note: I tested the coil resistance on a quality meter, on the new ones and the old ones, on the new ones 100.5 ohms, on the old ones 66.3 and 65.1, not sure of the significance, but a clear difference. I will continue to investigate the relays and post back, thanks again you guys have all been a very big help!

Also, when i compared the schematics of the two, they are different Doh! The BWD has an 87 and 87a, the oem has two 87's, when I got playing around with the ohm meter, I noticed they are absolutely not the right ones as they did not match in many areas, its hard to say exactly what I did without writing a book. It makes me wonder how they could sell replacement relays that are clearly not the same.
 

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Glad to hear the info helped, and your Sporty is not throwing codes now -

re: wrong relays - yes, unfortunately the Sporty relays are not the "common" relays that are stocked, so it is important to match any replacement relays to that diagram Galf posted / to make sure the replacement relays match the schematic / for 'dual make' relays..

I would absolutely try cleaning & refurb'ing the relays first, but will also caution if you have any further problems after cleaning, plan on replacing both relays:

from the many posts here / what others have posted / from what I have learned, the relays installed in our Sportys are a low life-cycle count (50,000 cycles rated) spec., which is entirely possible to reach on our vehicles, without taking into account any other electrical (poor grounding, etc) issues which would further reduce the life of the relay.

Thanks for posting your findings - great diagnostics on your part, congrats on the fix.

Regards,
GottaCruise
 

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NOTE:
After the contacts are refurbished, make sure the air gap is flushed with CRC cleaner and adjusted for positive contact when energized.. This will reduce the arcing and contaminate build-up..

I posted a "how to" some time ago.... Philip
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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When I came out of class and it would not start, after about two seconds of cranking I let off the key and immediately went right back after it, started instantly
That's exactly what would happen to me when my relays started to go. Mine looked in good condition when I popped the covers off and cleaned the contacts, but they must have developed an intermittent open in the coil or something because cleaning didn't help.
 

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I have heard nothing but good about the relays from rockauto.com. The comments were that they were the exact same ones as original and came from Korea... Maybe you should order a couple like was suggested in this thread.
The higher resistance of about 1/3 would reduce the current flow through the coil by 1/3 also which would reduce the magnetic field that pulls the the contacts in also...Sounds like the ones you got were totally wrong...Nothing unusual for Autozone and Advance...They look at a book for "Knowledge" and make recomendations based upon that "book"...It's not uncommon that the book is/was wrong...Rock has a research team that comes up with better parts and references.
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Update,

Thanks again for all of the great information, it has been a few days since I have looked at the thread. I had to take the sportage off the road because of the random issues, with these snowy roads in upstate NY, I don't feel it is safe to have a vehicle randomly shut off while driving down the road as it has been lately.

My brother cleaned, inspected and tested the relays and said they looked good, they can't be though. Bench testing with a perfect power supply is a lot different than actual use, the way they are now they still work 99% of the time. Based on all of the great information and feedback from everybody I feel confident they are the source of my issues.

Update on Rock Auto relays: They are the same ones that I got from advance auto branded as BWD. I ordered SMP #RY752, when I opened the package I was shocked to find this out. I looked at the schematics they are like the standard relay, contacts 87 and 87a, not two 87 posts to carry current when the coil is energized like the ones pictured in
http://www.kia-forums.com/1g-1994-2002-sportage/1g-1994-20...running-3.html

I will be ordering from the dealer today and let everybody know how I make out.

Thanks again
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Well, I finally got the relays from the KIA dealer. Put them in, it ran great great, but after it sat for about a half an hour. When I went to start it I let it crank for about three seconds and then stopped. I went right back after it and it fired right up on the first rotation, just like when it is cold. I am out of ideas. Any thoughts on this
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I have been doing a little research, does anybody think that this could be an ignition module on it's way out? I really think it is electrical based on the fact that it goes from a crank and no start condition to starting perfect in a fraction of a second, I know electronics do funny things and are affected by temperature in odd ways at times? Any thoughts on that?
 

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Sorry to hear you are still having trouble after the relay replacement.

If it's not fuel, then it is electrical (wiring or sensor) related..

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To complete the electrical Q/A, I'd like to see you clean the battery ground tray bolts, if present: remove the battery, lift the plastic tray, there should be (3) or (4) bolts securing the ground tray to the frame - clean the bolt threads, and replace the bolts with (new) hardware if badly rusted,

And also inspect the ground tray <-> motor ground strap (wire) rings: any corrosion where the wiring goes into the rings, etc., consider fabricating a replacement ground strap,

Use fine-grit (200-400) sandpaper to clean up the rings and mating surfaces, use some dielectric grease ('connection protector', 99 cents for a blister pack at Advance Auto or AutoZone..)

I'd also like to see you inspect and cleanup ground points G200 and G201 - behind Driver's side kick panel, below pass. cabin fuse box, behind Pass. side kick panel, bolted to side frame..

This way we know you have good ground points (and grounding) to motor, frame, ignition, and ECM, and you have replaced the relays, so power should be good to the sensors -> items powered further down the line..

Also, please confirm the O2 sensor codes have cleared / are no longer appearing w/ the new correct relays installed,

Thanks,
GottaCruise
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks you for quick, concise, and detailed information! I didn't even think about the other grounds besides the obvious, I cleaned where the cable bolts to the battery tray and the other end where it hooks to the motor. I didn't even think of the tray to body connection or the direct computer grounds. I will give this a shot and report. Thank you very much.
 

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You're welcome, and hang in there -

Do not be surprised if after cleaning up everything there is little/no improvement, I'm hoping there is, but if not, it is to be expected - your Sporty sat for a long time, getting this Q/A maintenance done is necessary, and important to further testing down the line. (The tests indicated at kiatechinfo.com are based on grounding and power supplied to components being in good condition)

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After cleaning, take voltage readings:

1. Direct Battery,
2. Battery Pos. + to frame ground,
3. Battery Pos. + to engine ground,
4. Pass. Cabin fuse + (use power door lock fuse) to frame ground,
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All readings should be within .1 - .5 volt of each other (not deviate more than 1/2 volt).

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You suspect ignition coil - next basic check would be checking positive (+) voltage at the coil pack lead, and engine ground (-), that should be close or at (B) battery voltage..

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If it was my Sporty, I would be (and have done) the above, next checks would be checking condition of spark plug wells: any oil inside, the valve cover gasket needs to be replaced / resistance checks on the coil packs, wires, and resistors in the short CP leads,

The ECT sensor, removing/inspecting/cleaning/testing,
The IAT sensor, (in the top airbox cover), inspecting/testing,

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I would get those (3) areas Q/A'd and cleared first (Ignition, ECT, AIT) first, before proceeding on with further component (MAF/TPS/IAC) checks,

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Just remember when Q/A'ing to do (1) sensor at a time, then test for positive effect - if you work on (many) areas at once and the problem abates you won't know (which) fix solved the issue..

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Lastly, that Sporty was parked for a long time for a reason (I suspect) - which is why it will require more diagnostic (detective) work on your part to (re)discover "why" it was parked and fix the issue..

Any questions, etc., post back, we will try to help, lots of knowledgeable folks on the forum.

Regards,
GottaCruise
 

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Sounds like your handy enough with a meter. You might want to add a few long (fused close to relay) wires (1amp OK) from the output of the MAIN and FUEL pump relays into the car. Then find yourself a good ground in the cab... Leave the meter connected to one of the two wires (from main and fuel relays) during your starting attempts ans "see" if either "drops" the +12v down low or to 0v.
The fuse is there to protect the extra wires "if" they happen to touch ground..
Fuses are cheap compared to the wiring harnesses!!

Another thing that it could be is the ignition switch contacts are worn out and may be causing intermittent power drops when they don't make contact...
Hanging wires on the feeds off of that switch and monitoring for voltage drops as you turn the key may help also...

Some things I'd try with a highly intermittent problem like yours...
You could at least rule out some "pieces" if you KNOW they are functioning correctly.
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
I cleaned the grounds, the three bolts that connect the battery plate to the body, and the did a better job of cleaning the battery and engine ground. In the interior, I cleaned the ground behind the fuse box and on the pass. side I cleaned the two grounds, one was not loose but not tight. I though I found it, but no. The cursed KIA strikes again. I let it idle for about 30 minutes and shut it off to get some lunch. When I tried to start it, it cranked for about ten seconds before it finally started. when it did start it started kind of slowly and there was a noticeable period between when it felt like it was starting to catch and when I felt it was running well enough to let off of the key. It did not take off and immediately accelerate to full idle rmp quickly, sort of stumble a little at first. I plugged my code reader right after this and it said the water temp was 159F and the air intake temp was 75F which does not seem out of the ordinary because the whole underside of the hood was fairly warm. I swapped out the computer coolant and air temp sensors in my first round of problem solving with ones from a parts vehicle that had no drive-ability issues and neither temps were noticeably different. Any thoughts on this? I have to go to class in a little while, I think I will check both the temps when I get home are ten tonight and the vehicle is cold and see how well they match the ambient temp. This will give me a better picture of their accuracy. It is really strange how it starts perfect when cold and hot, but not when warm, proper starting seems contingent upon engine temperature.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks for all of the great info guys, it will take me a while to test all of the components and do all of the above checks and let you guys know how I made out. I will finally really get to utilize the new fluke 77-4's capabilities, I am actually kind of excited about this. Thanks again guys have a good day, I am done for the day as I am off to school in a half an hour.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Well, I think it's fixed. When I got home from school I decided to check out a few little things that I could do quickly. I checked the battery, body, engine voltage and it all checked out good. Then I decided plug in the computer but it would not connect without it running. The temperatures seemed a little off, I got a reading of 30 for the coolant and 37 for the air with an ambient temperature of about sixteen. This was alarming, but both sensors were swapped out, however they were used. I found the sensors that I pulled because they didn't make a difference when I swapped them. They were within the parameters per KGIS specs. I decided that I would swap the originals back in tomorrow and in the mean time I thought of a test. I warmed the vehicle up to 160 degrees, the temperature which it did not want to start previously at. This time I watched the temperature on the code reader and when it got to 160 I turned it off, and it started right up. This made me think that it was not the temperature per se, but perhaps in the systems involved that started the vehicle when the oxygen sensor is not warm enough to be utilized for mixture control. On my tuned port injected camaro, I know that it has a cold start injector for absolute cold starts, and that it utilizes the MAF sensor until the oxygen sensor is hot enough to take over. I was also thinking that maybe the IAC motor could possibly be binding somewhere in the middle, but could be o.k. on either extreme. I decided to clean the MAF sensor and the IAC motor and I tried twice to warm it completely up to temperature and let it sit for a half an hour. It started perfect both times! I had to try it twice because I didn't believe it the first time. I am not sure which one it was, but it had to be one of the two, or a mixture of both, not sure. It does not randomly die anymore so I am sure that the relays were bad. I appears like I had two problems. Thank you guys for all of your help I could not have figured it out with it. :)
 
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