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Is it likely that he decides against warranty cover on the engine in a case where the non-OEM filter is confirmed to be the route cause of the engine damage ?
BUT, HI scan at HIS dealer, stated, if it comes in knocking and sees a non oe filter, he wont even look at it...

How does he know that is the issue? Without looking? I will quote it if needed...
 

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You can go against what the factory recommends, at your own peril, all you want. If you come to my dealer with a noise it cvvt related complaint that falls under the scope of any published info from Kia, I WILL require you to replace your oil filter before I proceed with diagnosis. Kia will, and has, backed, me in this.
Last sentence.

In other words, won't look at it for the issue.

Thats not how it is supposed to work.

YOu need to prove, the "specified part" caused the said issue, which if you did not do a diagnosis, you do NOT know.

That goes under that act you showed, yourself. If you dont prove it, you gotta warrant. SOme will walk away, but ones who know, won't, guess they see less of won't fight it, and that, is what these dealers are banking on.

I am so glad, my dealer is not like this, thats bull..
 

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I don't take any if this personally.

Here is what usually happens at my dealer.
A customer comes in complaining of an abnormal noise. Upon my inspection I notice that this model is one of the ones susceptible to this plarticular noise. I also notice an aftermarket oil filter. After checking some other general health items I go to speak to the customer. I inform them that this is looking to be a case, as described by Kia, of a filter related problem. I show them the publication and help them understand exactly what I think is happening. If there are no other issues I present the customer with some options. 1: We will change your oil and filter to what we know to be correct. If after a suitable amount if time we are satisfied that the noise goes away or was not affected then either they, or us, will pay for the oil and filter change. 2: They decline and leave. I have had only a few people choose #2. The overwhelming majority choose #1 and the results are truely mixed.
Its all in the presentation. We NEVER threaten to void warranty or do any such thing. Our job on the service drive is to educate the customer and only let them make the call.
Boy oh boy, this noise, I had a spectra 05 and this sportage (08) both the 2.0 cvvt. NEVER in the 125+k miles put on both cars combined, with aftermarket filters, have I heard this said noise.

Been around cars, know noises, maybe the days in our winters in a -25 below zero morning I might here a bit of chatter, the oil is thick, luckliy it isny frozen LOL, and any car at that temp will make a noise for a few seconds. THats it... Nothing.

Like I said, you see tons of cars come in and out, so dont all dealers with this issue and that, some more, some less, its a flaw on some, it happens to all makers.

They just need to admit it (before said consumer comes it, if you dont tell them, how do they know till it happens, then slap it as its their fault.), if it is that big, inform the consumer, and well, take the bill for it, it is their fault to begin with. But thats not gonna happen, let the consumer eat it after the fact.
 

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It would be unlawful to do so. I have never been asked what brand filter the engine had in a catastrophic failure case. Generally, when a DPSM gets involved, all he really wants to know is how, and if, the vehicle has been maintained. You cant manufacture or steal enough stuff in order to properly maintain your car so asking for receipts is a common and widely accepted method of proof. Brands play no part in the decision. I have seen cases where oil filters were installed improperly or "double gasketed" resulting blown motor syndrome. Those are the responsibility of whomever installed it, not Kia.
If the consumer is double gasketing, he shouldn't be working on cars to begin with, that is not what we are talking about.

Did you move away from the, I wont look at it, if it has an aftermarket filter. You said it, not me.

If you didnt look at it, how do you know it has double gaskets? or improperly installed?

Or its shady, you see that said aftermarket filter, bam, calling the rep because of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Boy oh boy, this noise, I had a spectra 05 and this sportage (08) both the 2.0 cvvt. NEVER in the 125+k miles put on both cars combined, with aftermarket filters, have I heard this said noise.

Been around cars, know noises, maybe the days in our winters in a -25 below zero morning I might here a bit of chatter, the oil is thick, luckliy it isny frozen LOL, and any car at that temp will make a noise for a few seconds. THats it... Nothing.

Like I said, you see tons of cars come in and out, so dont all dealers with this issue and that, some more, some less, its a flaw on some, it happens to all makers.

They just need to admit it (before said consumer comes it, if you dont tell them, how do they know till it happens, then slap it as its their fault.), if it is that big, inform the consumer, and well, take the bill for it, it is their fault to begin with. But thats not gonna happen, let the consumer eat it after the fact.

Why get so upset?.....as YOU have said: you have never had this issue.
No matter what Hi scan pro says EVERY case and car is a differant story. We have ran into this issue at our dealership as well. No knocking just noise on start up. We explain the filter issue and show them the TSB. Then it's up to them? Sometimes they change the filter sometimes they don't. It's not like changing oil is some big money maker for us, or any dealer for that matter.
 

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I am currently on way back to Saint Louis from hybrid training. I've been stooping at rest areas and gas stations to read and reply but I can see that my short responses are being misinterpreted. Once at home i will clear all this up, hopefully, with a coherent response se.
 

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I have gotten 2 TSB notices on my sportage, if this is a TSB, how come we are not getting this letter?

Cobra, he stated he wont even look at it, until the customer, takes it away and comes back with an OEM filter, its quoted right above, that is what I am wondering. How can you just say, its the filter without investigating? Thats not fair.
Why is it up to the consumer, when we in the beginning were not told this?

Cobra, what your saying is, you will tell them about the tsb, make them change the oil, ven if not time. Now, what if they say yes, you do the change, and the noise is still there? The car didnt need the oil change, yet the consumer is paying for it, and it wasnt the said issue to begin with. Why not just investigate it first, before proceeding?
Have they actually taken the time to see if its a certain brand/design? Probably not, just saying EVERY one.
Not automatically say, oh, its the filter. I honestly cannot beleive every aftermarkert filter would cause this, they all have their own construction, and design. How would they all have the same effect?

And I am not upset, dont read it that way.... I am irratated that Kia would let the consumer stay in the dark about this issue, until it happens. Why not inform us like all TSB's and send a letter out?

Also, that noise could be the 5w20 oil. Or colder temps, elevation, ect. Or any part of the oiling system. Do they truely know, its aftermarket filters? Or the pumps become weak over time, and startups are a bit dry. If its only at startup, I wouldnt lean towards the filter.
How did they sum that one up? Could it be, at almost oil change time, the oil has broken down a little and starts making the noise? Does it happen right after installing the said aftermarket filter? Or nearing 3K+ miles, or have they even looked at that?
So, EVERY aftermarket filter will cause this, even though most aftermarket filters are constructed different.

Then it comes down to, if Kia is saying we HAVE to use this or cause damage, shouldn't they be picking up that bill, its their fault and did not tell us until years after purchase? Or at the very least, inform the consumers about it BEFORE, you go in for the noise, thats just not fair.
 

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Read the PDF linked in the first post. The point there is that some aftermarket oil filters can cause "abnormal" noise. Also, through experience some cvvt codes can arise from using aftermarket filters and incorrect oil weight.
The point in my posts is to explain how the info in the TSB usually plays out.
Generally, TSBs are info that could aid in the diagnostics of a particular issue. The first step in any diagnostic process is to duplicate the concern. Then we analyze the concern and service info to determine a direction to take. When the conditions match those described in a TSB I begin to pursue the described action. In the case of a noise involving what may be the result of an aftermarket oil filter, the first step is to replace it, as described in the PDF.
How could I proceed with diagnosing an internal engine noise without first correcting what is the easiest thing to rule out. True, there are several things that could cause for instance, a whistling type noise in the engine. What would you do first? Remove the engine oil pump to inspect or replace the externally mounted aftermarket oil filter which, by Kia's ongoing product development, is known to possibly contribute to this concern?
It only makes sense, when diagnosing a noise that you can not "see", to correct the things that you KNOW could be the cause first.
Secondly, the customer is responsible for all repairs until it is deemed eligible for warranty coverage. Even on brand new cars we inform our customers that there may be a charge if we discover that the reason they are there does not meet the criteria for warranty coverage. Until the cause is known, nobody can know what the solution will be or if warranty applies. This simple concept is lost on only the simplest of customers.
I never said that I would refuse to look at a car because of an aftermarket filter. This goes back to asking the customer what he or she wants us to do first. Replace their oil filter or disassemble the engine searching for the source of a noise? Both would be on the customers' dime until it is deemed to be warranty. In the case of the oil filter causing the noise, Kia will not pay to replace it. Wouldn't you rather go for the cheap repair first? If the new filter doesn't fix it, the customer doesn't pay anything and now that we know that the filter didnt cause the noise, we pursue other avenues. It's that easy.

1fastkia, have i answered any of your questions? I do not know where your resentment for Kia comes from but rest assured, I don't care. Why do you put words in my mouth and act as if I speak for Kia. I have never claimed to speak for Kia, my dealer or anyone else. My responses are based on my 10+ years as a Kia factory trained technician. Furthermore, my side of this discussion is based Kia publications and anecdotal evidence from past events as they relate to the subject matter.



It would be unlawful to do so. I have never been asked what brand filter the engine had in a catastrophic failure case. Generally, when a DPSM gets involved, all he really wants to know is how, and if, the vehicle has been maintained. You cant manufacture or steal enough stuff in order to properly maintain your car so asking for receipts is a common and widely accepted method of proof. Brands play no part in the decision. I have seen cases where oil filters were installed improperly or "double gasketed" resulting blown motor syndrome. Those are the responsibility of whomever installed it, not Kia.


Then our DPSM is contacted. He makes the call. Also the Magnussen-Moss warranty act applies.


I don't take any if this personally.

Here is what usually happens at my dealer.
A customer comes in complaining of an abnormal noise. Upon my inspection I notice that this model is one of the ones susceptible to this plarticular noise. I also notice an aftermarket oil filter. After checking some other general health items I go to speak to the customer. I inform them that this is looking to be a case, as described by Kia, of a filter related problem. I show them the publication and help them understand exactly what I think is happening. If there are no other issues I present the customer with some options. 1: We will change your oil and filter to what we know to be correct. If after a suitable amount if time we are satisfied that the noise goes away or was not affected then either they, or us, will pay for the oil and filter change. 2: They decline and leave. I have had only a few people choose #2. The overwhelming majority choose #1 and the results are truely mixed.
Its all in the presentation. We NEVER threaten to void warranty or do any such thing. Our job on the service drive is to educate the customer and only let them make the call.


You can go against what the factory recommends, at your own peril, all you want. If you come to my dealer with a noise it cvvt related complaint that falls under the scope of any published info from Kia, I WILL require you to replace your oil filter before I proceed with diagnosis. Kia will, and has, backed, me in this.


Some oil filters don't even have a bypass valve! I replaced an entire engine on a customers' Rondo who only had hand-written oil change receipts, only about a quart of thick black, obviously burnt oil and who had no other records or recollection of any maintenance. This was under warranty as she was within time and mileage. Fair? No. Does it happen all the time? Yes. Because of the Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act, you are not required to purchase factory oil filters. However, there are known issues with substandard filters, so why go that route?
The bottom line is, if you come into a dealer with a problem commonly associated with non-factory filter installed on your car, my first recommendation is to eliminate this known problem. Because Kia can not warranty a filter it didn't sell you, or any parts that may become damaged from prolonged use of this product, why would you continue to do so?
What there really needs to be is regulation on the manufacturing and quality of things like this. It's unfair that a manufacturer has to warranty an engine because of a substandard oil filter that it (the manufacturer) can't tell you not to use. They can tell you that you must use a filter of equal value, but again, there is no standard.


I am currently on way back to Saint Louis from hybrid training. I've been stooping at rest areas and gas stations to read and reply but I can see that my short responses are being misinterpreted. Once at home i will clear all this up, hopefully, with a coherent response se.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Read the PDF linked in the first post. The point there is that some aftermarket oil filters can cause "abnormal" noise. Also, through experience some cvvt codes can arise from using aftermarket filters and incorrect oil weight.
The point in my posts is to explain how the info in the TSB usually plays out.
Generally, TSBs are info that could aid in the diagnostics of a particular issue. The first step in any diagnostic process is to duplicate the concern. Then we analyze the concern and service info to determine a direction to take. When the conditions match those described in a TSB I begin to pursue the described action. In the case of a noise involving what may be the result of an aftermarket oil filter, the first step is to replace it, as described in the PDF.
How could I proceed with diagnosing an internal engine noise without first correcting what is the easiest thing to rule out. True, there are several things that could cause for instance, a whistling type noise in the engine. What would you do first? Remove the engine oil pump to inspect or replace the externally mounted aftermarket oil filter which, by Kia's ongoing product development, is known to possibly contribute to this concern?
It only makes sense, when diagnosing a noise that you can not "see", to correct the things that you KNOW could be the cause first.
Secondly, the customer is responsible for all repairs until it is deemed eligible for warranty coverage. Even on brand new cars we inform our customers that there may be a charge if we discover that the reason they are there does not meet the criteria for warranty coverage. Until the cause is known, nobody can know what the solution will be or if warranty applies. This simple concept is lost on only the simplest of customers.
I never said that I would refuse to look at a car because of an aftermarket filter. This goes back to asking the customer what he or she wants us to do first. Replace their oil filter or disassemble the engine searching for the source of a noise? Both would be on the customers' dime until it is deemed to be warranty. In the case of the oil filter causing the noise, Kia will not pay to replace it. Wouldn't you rather go for the cheap repair first? If the new filter doesn't fix it, the customer doesn't pay anything and now that we know that the filter didnt cause the noise, we pursue other avenues. It's that easy.

1fastkia, have i answered any of your questions? I do not know where your resentment for Kia comes from but rest assured, I don't care. Why do you put words in my mouth and act as if I speak for Kia. I have never claimed to speak for Kia, my dealer or anyone else. My responses are based on my 10+ years as a Kia factory trained technician. Furthermore, my side of this discussion is based Kia publications and anecdotal evidence from past events as they relate to the subject matter.

Well said!
 

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LG, let me see, I bought a LG blueray player in march, guess what, it doesn't read discs anymore.
Cheap. YES, hell I still have a magnavox vcr that still works from the 80's.
Enough said there.
Funny thing about that. I have a MAGNAVOX big yellow portable BOOM BOX Model D8300 (heavy tank of a thing, takes 8 D cells!) labled "MDHQ" "5 Speaker Sound System" on it. It is sitting in my garage (it plugs into the wall too with a removeable cord, instead of batteries) even thou it IS a collectors item for when I am working out there or on car. It has DUAL CASSETTES too! lol. And I bought it BACK in the early 80's to take to the BEACH in COLLEGE (tail end or just after grad) when I lived at the "JERSEY SHORE". And it can still kick butt! It is clearly labled MAGNAVOX Consumer Electronic Corp Knoxville TN. But the last laugh is on YOU, and I knew this all along too and never cared. It is clearly MARKED! Made in Singapore (China). :lol: Careful what you state and use as data for an argument. Now tell us where YOUR 80's VCR was made. I did. Enough said there right? ;)
 

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Another fun fact,

I will compaire, fit and finish with my 08 sportage, and compaire it with my wifes 07 saturn aura, she just bought 2 days ago

The sportage feels, WAY, way, way, cheaper, than that of the Saturn (uSA made), the materials of the sportage look, feel, way cheaper, than that of the saturn, my 08 makes so many creaks, and noises, compaired with the 07 saturn, yet, saturn is def. not a high end car, yet, easily feels more superior in quality, ride, refinment.

There is no compaison, and both cars have almost exactly the same mileage, I notice a HUGE difference in QUality.

US has been making cars for decades and decades, have had decades with less than good quality, but as it stands in the 00's, Kia is def. behind any us car maker as in quality.
Yes they have made things better since there start, but total quality is still way behind.

I thought the sportage had been a great quality car, until I drove that saturn, it blows away everything I thought about the quality of the sportage.
To me, it now feels like an econo box.
Do you really think comparing a 07 Saturn Clone of a 07 era OPEL Vectra/Pontiac G6 (all three are GM Epsilon chassis),and were designed in Germany more or less with USA (GM GLOBAL) input much like a Toyota Camry is. But the AURA is built in KANSAS CITY KANSAS at the Fairfax Final Assembly Plant. Compared it to what amounts to a 08 KIA version of a Honda CRV or a Toyota RAV4 or Suzuki Vitara (not a GRAND VIT nor XL7) is wise here? Just wondering is all. :huh:

Why not compare it to a BMW Z3 built here in Spartainsburg SC or a MB E320/350 or old ML320/350 built in Altoona AL. The list goes on and on just like the 07 Chevy Malibu/SAAB 900 were both built on the GLOBAL Sigma chassis but not both built here in Louisville KY. Or the OPEL OMEGA/VAUXHALL OMEGA/CADDY CATERA/PONTIAC GTO/HOLDEN MONARO/HOLDEN COMMODORE are all on the same chassis too. And built all over the place from Germany to Autralia to Thialand to Russia to China.
 

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Wait a min, you have 2 usernames?

Is that under terms? WHo am I talking to, hiscan or 04sorento?
Or your telling his anwsers?
I dont get this?
Maybe lost......
 

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Ok, why should the consumer, never be told to use a certain part, "or could cause engine damage" to begin with? I dont need your anwser, just saying.
Or if after at the very least, let them know.
I didnt direct it at you,
see the "Kia" not you.......

The only part I questioned is what I quoted, it said, won't look at it.

Taking this too deep in your head now......
Not questioning you on anything else, Just Kia. I didnt ask you to talk for them. Just mentioning it would be nice if they let their customers know. it makes repeat customers. But leave customers in the dark, who wants to come back.
 

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Wait a min, you have 2 usernames?

Is that under terms? WHo am I talking to, hiscan or 04sorento?
Or your telling his anwsers?
I dont get this?
Maybe lost......
Not sure whom you think you were talking to really. It is a full moon and all. But since I keep quoting you at the top of what I say I am sure you know I am addressing you right to start? Even if i then also mention someone else by name later in the post and comment to them on a related matter as a good segway. I have only one avatar name and it is 04SorentoLX and always has been. The only thing that has changed in over 5 years is Ruby Red 2003 Spectra LS/Bright Silver 2004 Sorento LX to Titanium 2010 SOUL +/Molten 2010 SOUL SPORT LIMITED EDITION in my profile. I am (was) a Parts an Service Warrenty Rep (not KIA), he Hi-Scan Pro is I am sure (from what I read) a KIA A-tech (aka Master Tech). Cobra259 is a Parts Dept Manager lest you get further confused 1fastkia. I see a interesting pattern emerging here. I have a very rarely used still profile on the VOLVO Forum from when I still had the Wine (merlot) 1991 744 Euro Spec and the Bright Red (tech said it looked like a emergency vech) 1996 965 (97 they were renamed V90's) thou. But that is all you will find for me anywhere. As the Dakota/Durango I was part of forum is defunct now as went my name for the 2002 Durango SXT there. Unless someone is commiting fraud in my name. Names and profiles can never be killed in a fuctioning forum, just go inactive. And getting two on the same forum is a black art for sure. Maybe you have one? You are not the one they called the SPECTRANATER are you? Hense why I am 04SorentoLX and own two SOUL's. ;)
 

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Talk about resurrecting the dead or beating the proverbial dead horse...
This T.S.B. is nearly identical in its content to the one published by Hyundai some years ago.
It was geared towards the problem with a specific filter in the familiar orange can!
I have owned 7 Hyundais and every one of them has run a purolator oil filter from the 1st oil change till the last with an o.e.m. filter here or there when a bargain presented itself.
The real difference (I believe) is this...when push comes to shove on an engine/lubrication matter, you better have an o.e.m. filter on that car or one standing by with some dirty oil inside it ready to screw on or it is you (and I) who will be getting screwed!
You know...I know...we ALL know that quality after market filters exist as many/most of us have used them at 1 time or another.
Difference is...it is much easier to blame the after market filter then to own up to the problem and cover it under warranty.
I've only had my new Kia for a month or so but i can tell the dealer network is nowhere as strong as my past Hyundais!
When the fecal matter hits the oscillating device, you want to be up wind of both the smell and the shrapnel with an o.e.m. filter on your car.
I will run the o.e.m. filter on this car for the warranty period.
Not because I',m fearful of what an after market filter won't do but fearful of what a weak dealer network will do if given the chance.
Is o.e.m. the only choice, No!
Is o.e.m. the best choice, Perhaps!
Will it relieve any finger pointing and question of liability on lubrication related issues, I believe so!
 

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I had a warranty issue with my 03 Sorento. The dealer requested my maintenance records, I faxed them over( There were Fram, OEM, Napa,Wix and Purolator filters in the mix). The oil ranged from 5-30 dino in the beginning to 5-30 synthetic. No problems with them. If all of your items say they meet or exceed you should not have a problem. I believe if your doing 3000-5000 mile OCI you will not have any problems related to using them. Could your engine break or fail? Yes with even OEM parts.
 

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I had a warranty issue with my 03 Sorento. The dealer requested my maintenance records, I faxed them over( There were Fram, OEM, Napa,Wix and Purolator filters in the mix). The oil ranged from 5-30 dino in the beginning to 5-30 synthetic. No problems with them. If all of your items say they meet or exceed you should not have a problem. I believe if your doing 3000-5000 mile OCI you will not have any problems related to using them. Could your engine break or fail? Yes with even OEM parts.

"Q"...
Were your "maintenance records" simply log entries in the back of the manual or receipts for each/every oil & filter purchase?
Just curious.
 

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I'll stick with my aftermarket filters... If my engine blows that just gives me a reason to give it some pep and rebuild it... love a challenge like that lol.



But i doubt i'll have any issues, my acura i had was up to 196,000 and it had its whole life on aftermarket filters, IMO its all about how you drive it and the frequency of filter changes and oil, personally; I don't use fram either.
 

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I'll sell you Kia filters cheap, $4.95 each. Buy as little or as many as you like. No tax, you are out of state. Shipping will be $5.00, right to your door. That is if you want to use Factory oil filters. Your car, your choice.
I posted that TSB because I think people should know that info! Do you agree?
Are you an online vendor? Can I buy from you? Will Kia accept a receipt from you as proof of purchase?

James
 
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