[lackadaisy]

Having a heck of a time figuring out what's going on with this car. It's a 2008 Rondo with the four cylinder and an automatic.

It will crank like crazy, but never even thinks about starting. Basically acts like you're trying to start it with a non-programmed key. But there is no immobilizer light.

The reason I say it's not fuel-related is because, well, it's everything-related. The car ran, and then it just died in traffic one day and would not restart.

There is no fuel, no spark, and as far as I can tell...no ECM. I cannot connect to it with a generic OBDII scan tool. All the interior and exterior lights, the stereo, the windows, ect, work fine.

But when you attempt to start the car, there are NO relays being energized in the box under the hood other than the starter relay.

I've searched and all the info I can find always seems to just talk about problems with the fuel pump, the fuel pump relay, or one of the other relays. I can't find anything relating to every single relay (except the inexplicable starter relay) not getting turned on.

There is power to the box, and I have checked all the fuses for power on both sides. Nothing is blown. I haven't pulled the box to check the ground(s) yet, but I don't see it just randomly completely severing itself, and I don't see why the starter relay would still be getting powered up.

Is the ECM dead or am I missing something here?

 

[lackadaisy]

erm...the starter is fine.

It cranks. It just does absolutely nothing else.

 

[KingFatty]

I cannot connect to it with a generic OBDII scan tool.

Why not, does it fit?

How can you tell that you are getting spark in the cylinder? Same for gas and/or compression?

Maybe your battery is strong enough to crank the engine, but not crank and spark at the same time? Do you have a trickle charger to top off the battery and try that?

Any more details on the engine behavior as it died in traffic?

 

[lackadaisy]

The 'died in traffic' came from a family member, and they're not exactly giving anything helpful.

I did forget to add that they also installed a new battery (old one was probably fine, just discharged from cranking).

I'm assuming no connection between the battery change and the no-start, since the no-start condition happened first.

There is no spark in the cylinder. There is no fuel pump. Applicable engine sensors are not receiving reference voltage.

I can tell you all of these things without checking them, because a large problem exists- when you turn the ignition key on, none of the relays needed for these functions are turned on. I've manually checked them by hotwiring with test leads. I have not checked all of them, but I have checked the 'main' relay for sure. Are any of these relays a trigger for the others? Perhaps there's an ECM relay that I need to test, since the the other are not being turned on?

I've seen the Kia service info but didn't notice any wiring diagram section. Is this available (for the fusebox?). Or a general 'network diagram' showing all control module interaction?

Just FYI I'm a former dealer tech (not Kia, primarily Japanese and American stuff), doing a lot of electrical and engine peformance stuff (in addition to plenty of no-starts) so I'm not exactly lost when it comes to diagnostics. I really just don't know these cars...I've never worked on a single Hyundai product, other than superficial stuff (fix windows, mirrors, interior trim, ect), so any specific quirks with the electrical system as a whole are unknown to me.

It's almost feeling like I'm working on a Volvo (yes, worked there too). They had crazy-complicated networking and lots of odd electrical problems. And you have to know how to use the service info (wiring diagrams, signal specs, even just general operational descriptions...you spend some time at the computer). But I was always under the impression that Hyundai/Kia vehicles were relatively simple when it came to their operation- which is why they're generally inexpensive and reliable. I don't see anything out of the ordinary...an ECM, a BCM, probably a seperate trans computer somewhere...is there any other ECU on the network?

Not trying to condescend or anything, I just wanted to post and see if maybe this was a problem people have encountered before. Which is why I'm being very deliberate in the way I describe the problem; I'll restate:

When you turn the key to the 'run' position (the last position of the ignition cylinder before the spring), all the interior electronics work fine. The remote locking/unlocking also works fine. But no relays in the box under the hood are energized (so anything that a relay in that box turns on is not going to work)....with the exception that the starter relay will turn on when you attempt to crank the engine. The engine then cranks normally but will not start. The other relays in the box remain off. All fuses are good.

I can think of problems that might cause this intermittently, but I'm doubting any major ground suddenly got completely disconnected. I'm assuming this is a malfunctioning electrical component, not wiring.

The most typical cause for these problems that I know of is a major fuse blowing, or a major electronic module completely crapping the bed. I've ruled out the former. All I can think of otherwise is a major relay that I'm missing.

The OBD2 data link connector has power but the engine control module does not respond. Since it's generic OBDII and not make-specific (like a dealer tool) I can't try and pull codes from the BCM or anything for a clue, assuming anything would communicate...depends on which module is the 'gateway' to the DLC. I'm assuming BCM since the interior stuff works. I don't know what the ignition switch triggers; if it doesn't turn on the ECM itself, then I assume the BCM does. Perhaps it is an ignition switch issue. Or if that's not applicable, a bad output driver on the BCM.

 

[PLP]

If fuses are OK, I would check the ignition switch.
There are a couple of wires so by little chance the one is bad... although it sounds impossible to me.

So you are sure you are not getting fuel pump pressurize the system?
Did you try to start the pump manually? Another thing could be some of the senors related to ignition/timing. It is timing chain, so I doubt timing problem, but if ECU does not get ignition timing, it will not fire spark plugs.
Then, in my Rondo, you do NOT hear the pump until car starts cranking.

If it suddenly died - if it was V6 - I would say TB. In your case... chains can break as well, but you would hear some grinding I guess. You could pop the valve cover to see, though.

Refer to kgis (link below). Register, it is free. Maybe it will help.

However, I can't understand why you can't get connected to ECU



Since you said - immobilizer, I guess you are CDN. Anyway, put into profile car and location info.

 

[lackadaisy]

Is there no immobilizer in the US? Kia's (awful) reference materials just mention it 'can' have an immobilizer; doesn't specify market.

I think I may have found the problem. Or, well, I found nothing; but I've read some stuff that implies Kia's ECM programming is mildly retarded.

I had heard about the crank sensor issues, but wrote that off as not a possible cause for the collection of symptoms I'm seeing. And by any other manufacturer's standards, it's not. Your post kind of helps confirm what I was thinking, based on an account of this problem (engine computer refusing to 'turn on') actually being fixed by changing a crankshaft sensor, and the missing information from Kia's aforementioned crappy reference stuff (although I can appreciate it being available to anyone. better than nothing).

I couldn't figure out what sent the signal to the ECM to tell it to start doing its thing. It has hot wires and grounds, but nothing specified as an ignition switch signal.

Apparently, that's because there isn't anything to tell it to turn on other than sensor data. So ignition switch -> BCM -> starter relay -> starter -> crankshaft spins -> ECM actually starts doing stuff when it sees that the crank is spinning.

In other words, pants-on-head retarded, and not compliant with OBD2 standards. If the crank sensor quits working, the ECM is not connectable. This would imply that the ECM is never connectable unless the engine is running, even though it should be when the key is in position two with the engine off.

I'm guessing Kia's actual scan tools and/or diag software talk to the BCM to get around this. But since generic OBD is only meant to interface with the ECM, and not body/ABS/SRS/ect modules, it doesn't work. Industry standards be damned.

I'm going to try a crank sensor tomorrow.

 

[rondomondo]

Have you tried shooting some starting fluid in the intake while cranking?

 

[fulcrum]

I'm having similar problems (in Canada -- and yes, they have immobilizers on 'em here). So far the dealer has replaced the antenna coil (twice), replaced the keys twice, and I believe have replaced the BCM. They are now with Kia Canada techs working on it, examining pin connections, and possibily replacing the ECM.

Note: I may have the compents wrong, but when I go back to the dealer, I'll get it straightened out.