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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

I have an 02 shuma II 1800cc which has been fine up until the other day, drove home friday night no problems....saturday morning it wont start...immobiliser light is going out, fuel pump didn't appear to be running so checked that out and runs fine out of tank connected straight to battery or back in tank with 12v connected via the diagnostic connector, fuse is ok and relay taken out and checked, then looked for sparks and there dont appear to be any.... no engine fault lights are displayed....

I'm a little confused as to possible cause...could it be the immobiliser even though the light on the dash is out? Tried looking on KGIS for model but its too old.

If it is the immobiliser is there an override code - have read something about a keycode entry via the ignition key.

If its not the immobiliser...does anyone have any ideas?

Also, am i likely to get a valid diagnostic output with no errors displayed?

Hopeful!
 

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Just had a poster with a Sephia/Shuma of your vintage and it had an original stripped timing belt. I believe it was 18 teeth gone. He took my suggestion and checked his timing marks and found they were way off... I believe up till 2002 the engine is a non-interference type...meaning that if the gelt strips or breaks it DOES NOT destroy the engine... He also had NO OBDII codes...
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Hi Dave,

Many thanks for the suggestion...only three questions:

1. Where do I spot the timing marks?
2. How easy is it to access the timing belt?
3. Do I need to take out #1 plug to check for top for piston top dead centre when I look at the timing marks?

The fact that it looks like a non-interference engine is reassuring if this is the problem.

And one other thing that may help with any diagnosis....before this breakdown, with the ignition on, if I turn the air conditioning on I can hear / feel the compressor kick in and if the lights are on they dim a little...this is not happening either although all cockpit indications are correct (fan running / air con light illuminated) - would this be affected by a timing belt problem?

Cheers,

Doug
 

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You need to unbolt and remove the timing belt covers (black plastic) on the cam and crank pulleys. The crank pulley marks are usually around the 10 o'clock area and the cam pulley marks are usually at the 12 o'clock area.. If the belt is stripped of teeth the crank pulley will turn but the cam pulley(s) will stay static..2003 Shuma/Sephia/Spectras are interference...
The lights dimming is from a weak alternator circuit..The system was a little underrated from the factory on the earlier models..The car will run OK with it but like a heavy current draw in your home it will also dim the lights. I doubt if this is part of your problem.

If the crank and cam(s) gear(s) don't match it won't matter where TDC is.
They (the TBs) are only rated for 5yrs/60k miles and they often get overlooked until they break...On 2003~ Sephia/Spectras this is a SAD day as the engine usually gets badly damaged. Actually I hope it is your timing belt as this is an aggravation but is curable.
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Dave, thanks for the information.

I managed to get out and look at the belt and it seems absolutely fine, no stripped teeth and apparently good engagement on the cams, both cams turn when the engine is cranked. It was too dark to see the timing marks but will look at that at the weekend.

I cant help feeling its electrical though...I dont think i explained the air con issue properly....before this problem I would hear the compressor turning on when the ac is turned on but now I dont. I also tried attaching flying leads to the fuel pump relay because I would expect to see 12v on the switched side even if the control signal to close the relay doesn't get made - no voltage anywhere. Its almost as though there is an internal disconnect between the 12v battery feed on the outside of the fuse box and the internal distribution.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Further update....

both cam shaft timing marks are aligned, so although I haven't seen the crank one yet it seems unlikely that they would slip the same amount.

Did some more electrical testing and all relays work, and all fuses have power except (numbers from owners manual)...

9 Starter, Fuel Pump
12 HLLD
25 Rear O2 sensor
26 Rear O2 sensor
27 Fuel Pump
28 Injector

I dont know if this will mean anything to anyone as a clue....but still hoping
 

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You need to check to see if there is spark and if so will it start with "starting fluid" which would indicate a fuel supply problem.
If no spark check for pulses from the cam and crank sensors... They have to be in "sync" with each other for spark and/or fuel to be available..If either are missing that could also be your problem.
I found in the UK this place that has experience with immobilizer circuitry on quite a few brands of cars. They may give you some hints...
Immobiliser repair, immobiliser bypass & key coding supplied by Automotive Electronics
Dave
 

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Some of the fuses you say have no power may not have power until the ignition switch is in the ON position or during cranking (turning over the engine with the starter) so you might want to check for voltage with these conditions met.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi Dave, thanks for the ideas...there is still no spark and the ignition was on although not cranking so the fuel pump at least should have been on......so, last questions I think before I have to give up and pay somebody...which are the cam and crank sensors and whats the best way of checking them for pulses?

I'll try calling the company at the link provided tomorrow?

Many thanks for your help and advice so far.
 

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Immobalizers cut power to the fuel pump, fuel injectors, and the coils...so you may have a problem with yours...
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hi Dave,

Had delays doing anymore but finally got round to it....

Timing marks:

With both cam marks aligned vertically the two crank marks were at one at:

right hand mark at 2 divisions (4 degs ?) before TDC and left hand mark 6 divisions (12 deg) before TDC - sounds close enough to be ok but i cant find the info to be sure - would you have access to the right figures?

Also, someone suggested today that if the RPM meter doesn't move when its cranking then it could be the crank position sensor....any idea where this is, given that the belt seems ok and the car was working fine the day before and seems to have failed overnight?

Again...in hope...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hi Dave, thanks for the information, I have located and replaced the crank position sensor but still no tacho indication, and no way to get codes out of the car...none of the mobile mechanics I have tried have been able to talk to it and some instructions I found online for jumpering the connector to get the CEL to flash didn't work.

Pretty stumped now...read something about an ignition failure sensor on some cars, is there one on a shuma/spectra?....Really cant afford to put this into a main dealer at the moment and loath to scrap it but running out of options.

Thanks for your help
 

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beginning to look like an ECM power supply issue (or) total failure..
The ECM controls the fuel injection, spark timing, fuel pump, reads the sensors, AND outputs OBD codes... check for power to the ECM (may be more than one feed) and possibly get a used one on ebay or at a local salvage yard...
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the thoughts, I'm beginning to think the same...will investigate the power supplies and would you expect the local main dealer to be able to test and maybe re-program the ECM if i take it out of the car

Hope you had a good weekend

Doug
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hi Dave,

I was searching the site earlier to see if there is a way to test the ecu and found a similar thread in the sephia forum with very similar problems to mine (sadly no resolution posted). In it you mention using kia tech info which I have regoistered with and downloaded Adobe SVG.

It says to look at the ETM for detailed electrical information but i cant find that referenced in the site, what am i doing wrong?
 
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