Kia Forum banner

21 - 40 of 66 Posts

·
Registered
2011 Forte SX 2.4L (thankfully MPI) A/T 144K miles
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
The data stream shows the ECM is calculating 15-18% additional load on the engine, as a result of the A/C being on. The RPMs dropped by a corresponding percentage with the A/C on, which is just another indication of the extra load. Although a lower RPM will certainly sound different, IMO it shouldn't sound 'rough'. Fuel trims look very good, and there also is nothing else in the data stream either which would indicate that the engine is misfiring or having any performance issue (other than the extra load from the A/C).

So do you believe the rough idle with the A/C on that you described is something new, or is it possible that it's always sounded/felt that way with the A/C on? Also, do you happen to remember if the A/C was switched on when the no-start occurred?
 

·
Registered
2011 Forte SX 2.4L (thankfully MPI) A/T 144K miles
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
The ac has been rough for about 6-12 months.
Ok, it's good to know the A/C thing is not new, which makes it much less likely to be directly related to the no-start. One thing that comes to mind is that the A/C compressor pulley bearing might possibly be failing, causing extra drag which in turn produces more load on the engine. If you also are hearing top end noise, such as whining, that might be more evidence that the pulley bearing is on the way out.

AFA the no-start/P0106 goes , at this point about all you can do is wait until the next 'event' takes place. As I wrote previously, have a can of sensor-safe starter fluid in the vehicle, and spray a SMALL bit into the intake if you get another no-start, to find out if it will start with outside fuel. And if the CEL comes on, be sure to capture all of the freeze-frame data associated with all codes that have been set.

It would also be good to check for codes periodically, even if the CEL is not on, because codes can be set as 'pending', which doesn't turn the engine light on. So pending codes can come and go without you knowing about them, and they could potentially offer helpful information about what might be going on with your vehicle. IMO the no-start/P0106 was probably not a fluke, and is just the first indication of some issue with your vehicle. But I could certainly be wrong about that, and time will tell the full story.
 

·
New Member
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
Ok, it's good to know the A/C thing is not new, which makes it much less likely to be directly related to the no-start. One thing that comes to mind is that the A/C compressor pulley bearing might possibly be failing, causing extra drag which in turn produces more load on the engine. If you also are hearing top end noise, such as whining, that might be more evidence that the pulley bearing is on the way out.

AFA the no-start/P0106 goes , at this point about all you can do is wait until the next 'event' takes place. As I wrote previously, have a can of sensor-safe starter fluid in the vehicle, and spray a SMALL bit into the intake if you get another no-start, to find out if it will start with outside fuel. And if the CEL comes on, be sure to capture all of the freeze-frame data associated with all codes that have been set.

It would also be good to check for codes periodically, even if the CEL is not on, because codes can be set as 'pending', which doesn't turn the engine light on. So pending codes can come and go without you knowing about them, and they could potentially offer helpful information about what might be going on with your vehicle. IMO the no-start/P0106 was probably not a fluke, and is just the first indication of some issue with your vehicle. But I could certainly be wrong about that, and time will tell the full story.
Well I appreciate the time, I am going to just use the car again and carry the scanner. And wait for it to return. I will report back when it occurs again. But at this current time I’m unable to replicate the problem.
 

·
New Member
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
Well, I am DOA once again. Luckly this time I was close to home and the car started. I drove it home, and again it will not start.

Heres the data
DTC**

VIN: KNADN5A38C6092269

DTC_TYPE: Current DTCs ($03)

DTC_NUM: 1

PROTOCOL: ISO15765-4 CAN(11bit)

LANGUAGE: English





P0326 Knock Sensor 1 Circuit Range/Performance Bank 1 or Single Sensor





DTC**

VIN: KNADN5A38C6092269

DTC_TYPE: Pending DTCs ($07)

DTC_NUM: 2

PROTOCOL: ISO15765-4 CAN(11bit)

LANGUAGE: English





P0326 Knock Sensor 1 Circuit Range/Performance Bank 1 or Single Sensor



P0106 Manifold Absolute Pressure/Barometric Pressure Circuit Range/Performance





DTC**

VIN: KNADN5A38C6092269

DTC_TYPE: Permanent DTCs ($0A)

DTC_NUM: 1

PROTOCOL: ISO15765-4 CAN(11bit)

LANGUAGE: English





P0326 Knock Sensor 1 Circuit Range/Performance Bank 1 or Single Sensor





LIVE DATA**

There's no recorded data!



FREEZE*

VIN: KNADN5A38C6092269

PROTOCOL: ISO15765-4 CAN(11bit)

LANGUAGE: English





DTC that caused required freeze frame data storage P0326



Fuel system 1 status CL



Fuel system 2 status ---



Calculated LOAD Value 94.1%



Engine Coolant Temperature 199F



Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 3.9%



Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 0.8%



Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure 30.0inHg



Engine RPM 2803/min



Vehicle Speed 32mph



Ignition Timing Advance for #1 Cylinder 2.0



Intake Air Temperature 122F



Absolute Throttle Position 83.9%



Time Since Engine Start 2076sec.



Fuel Rail Pressure 2163.4psi



Commanded Evaporative Purge 0.0%



Fuel Level Input 35.7%



Barometric Pressure 30.6inHg



Control module voltage 14.23V



Absolute Load Value 85.1%



Fuel/Air Commanded Equivalence Ratio 0.999



Relative Throttle Position 74.9%



Ambient air temperature 86F



Absolute Throttle Position B 85.1%



Accelerator Pedal Position D 40.0%



Accelerator Pedal Position E 40.4%



Commanded Throttle Actuator Control 100.0%



Long Term Sec. O2 Sensor Fuel Trim-B1 -0.8%
 

·
Registered
2011 Forte SX 2.4L (thankfully MPI) A/T 144K miles
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
Spraying starter fluid turns the engine, but it doesn’t stay running
Very good to see that test result! I was just about to ask the question when your answer showed up.

So if you spray fluid in multiple times, it will start and die each time you try it? Not telling you to try keeping it running by spraying in fluid continuously - just wanting to confirm that it will start each time it gets external fuel.
 

·
Registered
2011 Forte SX 2.4L (thankfully MPI) A/T 144K miles
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
Ok, that would certainly appear to confirm a fuel problem. So the next question would be is there something wrong with the gas in the tank (water, ….), or is it a fuel delivery issue. It's far more often going to be a problem with fuel delivery, but I'll ask just in case, if you can think of anything unusual about the last time you refueled, or anything else which might have caused fuel contamination.

On the fuel delivery side, can you hear the fuel pump run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key to ON? One quick test you can try is to turn the key to ON for a couple seconds, then turn the key back off. Repeat that sequence 4-5 times before trying to actually start it, to see if it will start up and run for a bit after trying to do extra priming of the fuel pump.
 

·
New Member
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
Yes the fuel pump turns on. The only thing with the gas was I got cheap gas where I was. I’m about 1/2 through the tank. It wasn’t a typical station I go to. Priming it turns the engine over with it’s a tougher idle but it’s currently running
 

·
Registered
2011 Forte SX 2.4L (thankfully MPI) A/T 144K miles
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
Interesting results there, and the jury is still out on exactly what the problem is. It could be just bad gas, or it could be the fuel pump on the way out. It would be really helpful if your vehicle had a Schrader valve on the fuel line, to be able to easily test fuel pressure, but most don't have one these days.

And I believe your engine is a GDI, which has a regular fuel pump and also a high pressure pump. Just a side note that I've read multiple reports (mainly on the Hyundai forums) of failures with the high pressure pump. I wish I could give you a good DIY direction to proceed from here, but unfortunately I can't. I don't know what tool is needed to test the high pressure pump, and I never like to just hang on parts without testing first. I'll take a look tomorrow on the Hyundai side to see if anyone's posted a DIY test of the high pressure pump, unless you come up with something else first.
 

·
Registered
2011 Forte SX 2.4L (thankfully MPI) A/T 144K miles
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
The ECM doesn't produce a data stream during a cranking no-start, and we already have a few after it's started up, so no more of them are needed at the moment.

The fuel pressure at the fuel rail is showing up as ok in the streams that you posted, once the vehicle is running. However, it's still possible the pump is sporadically beginning to fail, or the check valve is sticking open at start-up time.

One other interesting thing is the P0326 knock sensor code, which could possibly be an indicator of contaminated gas (causing pinging/knocking). But that's just speculation, and testing the fuel would probably be required to determine if its bad.
 

·
Registered
2011 Forte SX 2.4L (thankfully MPI) A/T 144K miles
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
Could I burn it out and just put 93 octane? And monitor?
If it's starting and running ok, then using up the remaining 1/2 tank is certainly an option for you to try. But IMO you can just refuel with the same octane from your regular gas station which has been ok previously - no need to do anything different.
 

·
Registered
2011 Forte SX 2.4L (thankfully MPI) A/T 144K miles
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
I always prefer to make repairs based on testing instead of guesswork. But if I had to make a guess in your case, my first suspect would be one of the fuel pumps, and not bad gas. And that guess would be based strictly on the fact that bad gas is very much the exception these days, and it's normally always going to be some other problem. However, I certainly hope for your sake that this one is bad gas, and that getting rid of it resolves the no-start and also the codes. Easiest possible fix!
 

·
New Member
Joined
·
54 Posts
Discussion Starter #39 (Edited)
Well at this point, if the car breaks down again, I’m going to have to bring it to a mechanic. I dont think I have the ability to change a fuel pump, if in fact that’s the issue but I’ll report back with update as they come available
 

·
Registered
2011 Forte SX 2.4L (thankfully MPI) A/T 144K miles
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
Well at this point, if the car breaks down again, I’m going to have to bring it to a mechanic. I dont think I have the ability to change a fuel pump, if in fact that’s the issue but I’ll report back with update as they come available
Although I normally always encourage people to DIY whenever possible, in the case of these high pressure fuel pumps I definitely agree with not doing this job, except for very experienced DIYer who have a good understanding of working with 2000-3000 PSI systems.

Here's something which perfectly illustrates just how volatile and problematic this stuff can be. Kia/Hyundai was forced to recall every one of the 170K Theta engines which had been previously replaced under warranty over the past few years. The documentation of this recall states that the dealership service departments, in some cases might not have followed the exact specifications for the high pressure fuel pump replacement, which in turn resulted in engine bay fires.

So if your vehicle's issue does turn out to be a bad pump, in addition to not doing the job yourself, you probably want to ask if the shop has done these pump replacements previously, and feels comfortable doing them. If they give you one of those looks, just mention the Kia/Hyundai engine bay fire recall, which should bring them back to reality.
 
21 - 40 of 66 Posts
Top