Kia Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
My 2007 Sedona with 150,000 miles all of a sudden started to have low oil pressure at idle when warm and set DTCs P0011- "A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance (Bank 1) and P0021 - "A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance (Bank 2). This occurred within an hour after an oil change at Walmart. I provided the oil filter to be used in the oil change. I use the Auto 7 brand which is Korean OEM. The crankcase has the appropriate amount of oil in it and the filter housing shows no leakage. When warm the "Low Oil Pressure" instrument panel light comes on at idle and stays illuminated until about 1,000 RPM.

Could this problem be a result of the oil change somehow? Is is possible that the filter could have been installed incorrectly causing a low oil pressure condition or that some super thin oil was installed instead of the 5W-20 that the window reminder sticker says was used? After all the oil changes I've had in my Hyundai/Kia vehicles of this generation with no ill effects, I'm thinking not but stranger things have been known to happen.

Could it be that a VVT oil control valve is stuck open by a dislodged screen as has been mentioned in other threads and the timing of this happening right after an oil change is purely coincidental?

Of course, a weak oil pump is also a possibility but oil pumps are famously durable.

Any suggestions anyone has would be greatly appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,102 Posts
... This occurred within an hour after an oil change at Walmart. ....
I'd prefer to be less critical, but frankly you're just asking for something bad to happen by having your oil changed at Walmart (or any of the fast lubes for that matter). Yes, the timing COULD just be coincidence, but IMO it's highly likely that some serious mistake was made during the oil change. It's pointless to speculate on what they did wrong, because what's done is done, and it's likely that permanent damage has already been done to the engine.

So you need to decide if you're going to go after Walmart. If you have plans to do that, then I highly recommend that you take the vehicle to an quality independent shop, in order to get their opinion. Perhaps they can find a smoking gun, or tell you how much effort (i.e. $$) it would take to try and prove a mistake on the part of Walmart.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,475 Posts
My 2007 Sedona with 150,000 miles all of a sudden started to have low oil pressure at idle when warm and set DTCs P0011- "A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance (Bank 1) and P0021 - "A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance (Bank 2). This occurred within an hour after an oil change at Walmart. I provided the oil filter to be used in the oil change. I use the Auto 7 brand which is Korean OEM. The crankcase has the appropriate amount of oil in it and the filter housing shows no leakage. When warm the "Low Oil Pressure" instrument panel light comes on at idle and stays illuminated until about 1,000 RPM.

Could this problem be a result of the oil change somehow? Is is possible that the filter could have been installed incorrectly causing a low oil pressure condition or that some super thin oil was installed instead of the 5W-20 that the window reminder sticker says was used? After all the oil changes I've had in my Hyundai/Kia vehicles of this generation with no ill effects, I'm thinking not but stranger things have been known to happen.

Could it be that a VVT oil control valve is stuck open by a dislodged screen as has been mentioned in other threads and the timing of this happening right after an oil change is purely coincidental?

Of course, a weak oil pump is also a possibility but oil pumps are famously durable.

Any suggestions anyone has would be greatly appreciated.
If it was me, with all the unknowns and the poor reputation of Walmart (most quick lube places), I'd be getting some good brand name full synthetic oil, a Kia filter and install this ASAP.

The lube oil pressure is used as hydraulic oil for the VVT, so not surprised at the codes.

I would not drive it like this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
kiaguy2002/ron1004 - Thanks for the quick replies. Since discovering the problem, I have parked the van until I figure out what's going on. The engine does not exhibit any valve train "clattering" or overheating so maybe it hasn't been destroyed (yet). I think Ron's suggestion of draining out whatever is in the crankcase and putting in a new filter is probably the first thing to do. Who knows, maybe the Walmart techs filled the crackcase with power steering fluid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
I had this problem when I put in a stop leak additive. It thinned out the oil too much. I drained the oil and the CEL went away almost immediately. I suppose you could have a bad sensor but I'd say it's too coincidental having it occur after the oil change.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Fwiw, I've never used Wally's for an oil change but I have used Valvoline when I don't feel like doing it myself (which is rare). Never had a problem with the local Valvoline shop changing the oil - I've used them a couple times. It's pretty hard to f#$k up an oil change. Most of the times people mess up an oil change is by stripping the threads on the plug and I've had a shop do that to me on a previous car I owned. That's why I do it myself 99% of the time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Fwiw, I've never used Wally's for an oil change but I have used Valvoline when I don't feel like doing it myself (which is rare). Never had a problem with the local Valvoline shop changing the oil - I've used them a couple times. It's pretty hard to f#$k up an oil change. Most of the times people mess up an oil change is by stripping the threads on the plug and I've had a shop do that to me on a previous car I owned. That's why I do it myself 99% of the time.
rrrchavez - I figured the oil was too thin as well and drained it, put in proper weight (5W-20) replacement oil and a new filter and still get a low oil pressure light on the dash at idle/low RPM. It's possible that it could be the sensor and that it's just coincidence that it went bad after an oil change at Walmart. I'll replace it and see what happens. I've only driven it a couple of miles since the oil change so I don't know if it will set the P0011 and P0021 DTCs as originally described (I reset these codes after I changed the oil).
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,475 Posts
rrrchavez - I figured the oil was too thin as well and drained it, put in proper weight (5W-20) replacement oil and a new filter and still get a low oil pressure light on the dash at idle/low RPM. It's possible that it could be the sensor and that it's just coincidence that it went bad after an oil change at Walmart. I'll replace it and see what happens. I've only driven it a couple of miles since the oil change so I don't know if it will set the P0011 and P0021 DTCs as originally described (I reset these codes after I changed the oil).
Your best bet would be to get an oil pressure gauge fitted to find out where the oil pressure really is.

The stock pressure switches aren't very accurate, but normally quite reliable, and typically indicate low pressure when its actually dangerously low.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
If the problem started immediately after an oil and filter change I would think that something
may have gone wrong there. I bought an oil filter from a Kia dealer once and was told that there are
three different length ones for this engine depending on the size of the canister.
Even after giving them my VIN they gave me the wrong one.

Double check that the filter bottoms out in the canister and that the top and bottom o rings are in good condition.
If the oil filter is not seated properly it will cause low oil pressure. After oil is pumped through the filter it
goes to the camshafts where the OCV are located which may be causing your codes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
.

Getting the pressure checked is an excellent suggestion and is what I would do at this point.

Just curious, you didn't do an engine flush before the change did you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
@discoken and @rrrchevez - So here's the situation todate. I took the van to a mechanic of over 35 years experience that I wholly trust as he's done work on my other vehicles and has always been honest and forthright with me. He put an actual guage on the oil pressure sending unit and it was indeed correctly indicating a low oil pressure condition. His search of Alldata and other sources could not point to any obvious cause. With no other information available I decided to have him replace the oil pump. I know that oil pumps are notoriously reliable and hardly ever fail but in this case, this was our "last ditch effort" at attempting a fix although there was probably less than a 50-50 chance that a new oil pump would solve the problem.

So, what was the end result? The new oil pump did not solve the problem. The low oil pressure light comes on when the oil has warmed up and stays lit until the engine reaches 1400 RPM. When replacing the oil pump my mechanic also replaced the oil and filter I had just installed. This oil and filter had been in the vehicle for a total of 9 miles.

So, to recap, after 3 oil and filter changes over the last 22 miles and a new oil pump I'm still left with an unsolved situation. My mechanic thinks that there is a main bearing issue with the engine which would require an engine rebuild and that can't be justified economically for a 12 model year old vehicle with 150,000 miles.

I'm going to change the oil (a 4th time) and refill with the thickest oil I can find (20W-50) and use the van as a truck for short runs to the Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, ect. for things that don't easily fit in a car's truck. I will use it for such short trips until it starts coughing up parts on the pavement. It's too bad because I got to like it with it's Infinity sound system, sunroof and memory seats/steering wheel/pedals. However, I think I've run my course with Korean manufactured motor vehicles. They just don't seem to be as durable as "Detroit iron".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
You said the light stays on until you get to around 1400rpm.

I'm wondering if you have some sludge in the engine somewhere blocking a passageway and once the engine gets warmed up the sludge thins out enough to allow good oil flow.

You could try flushing the engine once or twice before you change over to a heavier oil, to see if that does anything. Be mindful that there's a caveat to flushing an older engine. The flush could work so well it reveals a leaky gasket in something like your valve covers.

Just curious, does the engine make any odd sounds (like the lifters) like it's being starved for??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
I think you should try referring back to the trouble codes that originally came on with your CEL.
These indicate a problem with the camshaft timing. Most likely the oil control valves which
come into play from idle to about 2000 rpm which is when your oil pressure light comes on.
Perhaps one of the filters is blocked at low rpm which then clears when accelerating or an OCV is stuck.

If the bearings have gone bad I would think that you would have seen some metal in the old oil or filter.

Do you have access to an OBD reader with live data which would tell you whether your OCV are
opening and closing at the appropriate time.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,475 Posts
I think you should try referring back to the trouble codes that originally came on with your CEL.
These indicate a problem with the camshaft timing. Most likely the oil control valves which
come into play from idle to about 2000 rpm which is when your oil pressure light comes on.
Perhaps one of the filters is blocked at low rpm which then clears when accelerating or an OCV is stuck.

If the bearings have gone bad I would think that you would have seen some metal in the old oil or filter.

Do you have access to an OBD reader with live data which would tell you whether your OCV are
opening and closing at the appropriate time.
Any of the VVT solenoid filters being blocked will not cause a low oil pressure condition.

He put an actual guage on the oil pressure sending unit and it was indeed correctly indicating a low oil pressure condition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
My guess is the camshaft DTC on both bank 1 and 2 are related to the low oil pressure. Solve the oil flow problem and I bet that DTC goes away.

For reference, I once got a camshaft position DTC within 5mins after I added a stop leak to my oil. (it thinned it out). I immediately changed the oil and the error code went away and has never come back.

If I'm not wrong, the mechanic confirmed low oil pressure even after replacing the pump, filter and proper grade oil??? Seems to me that indicates a blockage somewhere between the pump and oil pressure sending unit. This is why I suggested flushing the engine to maybe thin out any sludge that might be blocking an oil passage(s). Watta you have to lose at this point? If the car has a genuine low oil pressure situation at this point, it's basically undrivable as it's eventually going to sieze up or enter into limp mode leaving you stranded somewhere.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Plus, failed or failing OCV's (solenoids) almost always give you a performance problem like poor fuel economy, top end noise or sluggish performance. If they're not opening and closing at the right time, you'll know it. And I would be highly doubtful both OCV's failed simultaneously.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Finally Figured Out My Low Oil Pressure Problem

To rrrchavez, ron1004 and discoken: Thanks for all your help with this. I was tearing my hair out trying to determine what was happening here.

Just as a stroke of luck I happened to find a YouTube video of an oil change on a 2007 Kia Sedona just like mine. In the video the person filming his oil change describes what is called a “core” and a relief value component that is attached to the core which is affixed to the bottom of the oil filter "cap". The “core” looks like a cylindrical plastic basket with a pointer-like protrusion from the bottom while the relief valve is shorter cylinder with a valve assembly that resembles a very thick washer. The core/relief valve combination is affixed to the bottom side of the large black oil filter cap and the oil filter is supposed to be slipped over the core-relief valve combined unit and then installed in the cup/receptacle attached to the engine. It seems that this is the mechanism that moderates/controls the oil pressure in the engine and keeps it within acceptable bounds.

Guess what!! My vehicle didn’t have these things in the oil filter receptacle.

It appears that the Walmart technician that performed the oil change on April 22 discarded the “core” and relief valve assembly with the old filter and just plopped the new filter into the engines receptacle and screwed down the cap. Without the core/relief valve components there is no “backstop” against which the oil pump can build pressure against.

I’ve since purchased a replacement core, relief valve and installed them in the vehicle. The low oil pressure instrument panel light no longer illuminates. I've made a claim against Walmart for the cost of all the efforts I put forth to try to figure out what was going on. Their insurance company has denied my claim for no other reason other than they can. I'm proceeding to small claims court.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,102 Posts
.... I've made a claim against Walmart for the cost of all the efforts I put forth to try to figure out what was going on. Their insurance company has denied my claim for no other reason other than they can. I'm proceeding to small claims court.
Sorry to say, but IMO you're not going to win this one. Your mistake was to change the oil and filter, instead of taking it immediately to a shop for diagnosis. Their lawyers will be able to argue that it was not the filter Walmart installed on the vehicle, at the time the problem was discovered. So even though you know what the truth is, there will be no way to prove that the parts were discarded by Walmart, and did not happen in the subsequent oil change.

But who knows, perhaps I'm wrong and the wheels of justice will turn your way. Good luck with it, and also find a good independent shop to do all of your future oil changes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Kiaguy02 - The problem was fixed after driving 29 miles with the internals missing from the oil filter "cup". I am going to argue that I would have no motive to try to destroy my own engine and that when I myself changed the oil and filter after about 12 miles of driving, I didn't realize that the filter "cup" was missing the core and relief valve assembly as I'd never been inside the cup before. When I changed the oil I found a filter lying there and replaced it just like it was found. My mechanic was also unaware that Hyundai/Kia engines had these components inside the filter receptacle as he did the same thing I did (but about 10 miles later after replacing the oil pump).

The bottom line: It took me $775 to try everthing I could to fix this (inlcuding a new oil pump that wasn't necessary but the only thing I and my mechanic could think of doing) and only came across the solution accidentally. Walmart farms out all insurance claims to a company called Claims Management Inc. (CMI) that is in the business of saying "no" although I documented this all with pictures and receipts. I'm just glad that the engine seemed to have not suffered catastrophic damage from all this. I have no knocking or valve train noise and I've put 2,000 miles on the van since this happened so I have to be thankful for that. Oh, by the way, I've had oil changes done by Walmart on this car and other 2007 Sedonas/Entourages about 25 times over the years and this was my first bad experience. However, I will now be doing oil changes myself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,144 Posts
With150k of wear miles on the Van, I would have tried 5w/30 oil from the start! Not 5w/20
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top