[bluemozzer]

A couple of months ago i was driving through town and my sedona 2.9 crdi (03 plate) had what appeared to be a loss of power. No acceleration through gears as if the car had gone into limp mode. Subsequently after stopping the car and turning off the engine the car would not restart. Had the car flat bedded to the garage and this was diagnosed as a camshaft sensor problem (from the diagnostic codes). The sensor was replaced but the car would unfortunately still not start. After some more invest i was then informed it was the ECU as there was no 5 volt output to the camshaft sensor. I didn't really want to lay out the £600+ for a new ECU so i sourced a used part (including all associated parts) from a used parts dealer. This has been fitted and the fault is still there and the garage are still saying it is the ECU at fault.
Although it was a used ECU i find it highly unlikely that two components would fail the same way with the same symptoms. The garage have had my car now for two months and i am hoping that someone might be able to give me a little help on this matter as i am not convinced that the ECU is the root cause.
Some info on the ECU's inputs/outputs would be handy. looking in particular if there could be any other fault that would stop the ECU outputting to camshaft sensor.

 

[Parcel]

A couple of months ago i was driving through town and my sedona 2.9 crdi (03 plate) had what appeared to be a loss of power.

I had the same problem just after picking mine up, turned out to be one of the injectors (which they had to replace at their expense) they only managed to keep mine for a week (inc bank holiday) as I sent them so very choice emails, threatened to contact trading standards and the tv investigative programs.

Its going great now, but at the time I had only driven 11 mles from the dealers, boy was i miffed!

Hope u get it fixed pronto!

 

[bluemozzer]

Thanks for the reply Parcel,
That i suppose would be an explanation for the loss of power but would it cause the subsequent problem of not starting?

 

[bluemozzer]

Appologies for the ignorance but i cant find much info on the workings of an ECU/PCM. I hope someone would be able to answer a couple of question and clear up some points for me.

1. I know that the camshaft sensor, crankshaft sensor ect are inputs to ECU/PCM. Does the supply voltage to these component also come from the ECU/PCM?

2. I have conflicting information online as to whether the CMP would stop the vehicle starting. Would the vehicle normally be able to start with a CMP problem?

3. Would a problem with the injectors cause the symptoms described in first post. i.e, Loss of power (limp mode) and not starting after stop? Vehicle does however turnover quite healthly just doesn't fire up.

Any info on the ECU/PCM sequence on engine start would be very much appreciated. i am trying to avoid a series of expensive component changes on spec.

appreciate any help thx

 

[DavesSpectra]

I'm not "up" on diesel engines but the camshaft and crank position sensors on the US gas models have three wires connected to both sensors.

They are...
(1) +12v fed through the "inj" fuse. This supplies the power to the sensor
(2) Ground/Earth/Body. This supplies the ground return to the sensor
(3) Sensor output. This IS at +5volts and toggles (square wave output) between +5v and ground at the engine is turned over.

Most sensors are fed +12v and NOT +5v as you posted.
Look for one lead at +12v and if that is missing check the fuses under the hood/bonnet and also inside the cab of the car. The US model uses the "inj" fuse which is a 15 amp fuse so you may use the same marked fuse for the diesel engine.
The sensor(s) output will toggle between +5v and ground/earth as the engine is turned(cranked) over. The engine does not have to be running...just turning over to read the change in logic states.
ECM/ECU/PCM modules are usually NOT bad and lots of money is lost in replacing them. Check both the cam and crank sensors for (1) +12v, (2) ground/earth, (3) signal out at +5v and ground/earth.
Dave

 

[DavesSpectra]

Oh BTW...
The +5v is usually supplied (through a resistor in the ECM) by the ECM.
The sensor (cam/crank) pulses (shorts to ground) this line creating the needed feedback to the ECM. If the +5v is missing then you need to check the power feed to the ECM/ECU/PCM (same beast, different names).
The sensor "pulls" the +5v (fed from the ECM) to ground...then releases it (goes back to +5v)...then pulls it to ground again...etc...etc...etc. The ECM looks at the signal line for the changes to time the fuel injection. (no spark as it is a diesel).
Dave

 

[bluemozzer]

Thanks DavesSpectra
That is perfect and just what i was after.
really appreciate it mate

 

[DavesSpectra]

Keep us posted on what you find...
Remember I was referencing a "gas/petrol" engine...
The sensors should be similar though...
Dave

 

[rgsnidow]

I needed to know that also..

that info way a major part of what I was needing for my dead Kia Spoem rtage..but what I really need to know is whether or not there is a camshaft sensor in a 2.0 DOHC..and if there is, where might a fellow find it..I checked the voltages going to the coil paks which is 12V but it stays steady while cranking it over..changed them along with the crank sensor tore off the front of the engine and checked the belt and it was still on the money..
what would a person looks for in case the camshaft sensor is ok...Thanx Ralph

 

[DavesSpectra]

Hi Ralph...
Welcome to the forums...
I see in one of your posts you have had rodent problems.. They don't always stay in one area and "love" to chew wires everywhere. Keep looking! also check the fuses one at a time (pull/check for continuity/replace) the most unlikely one may be our problem.
My right rear tail light fuse also controls my dash and some running lights!
The 12v line WILL stay steady...LOOK for the +5v sender line. It is the one that fluctuates between 5v and ground (0v).
You did not fill out the CP area when you joined so I/We don't know what year/engine/drivetrain (2WD/4WD) manual/auto. We also don't know what general location you live in. This is a GLOBAL forum and there are many variations of Sportages.
I can "see" you are in Charleston, West Virginia being a moderator here.

Along with this forum you need to register at "kiatechinfo.com".
This is KIA's own technical site.. There is all kinds of correct info available for FREE!
To successfully "get on" and register these are the needed requirements...
1 You need a "windows" machine (XP/Vista/7)
2 You need to be running "Internet Explorer" version 8 (or higher)
3 You need to download and install a "plug-in" from Adobe called SVG (scaled vector graphics). The link to this software is on this site and can also be found through Google.
The site has a fairly steep learning curve as its layout is not very intuitive. Things (info) may not be where you might think it should be...Keep looking you will find what you need.
We are also here to help each other. I see you have all ready jumped in!
Read the older posts on your car model/year. We have not (as-yet) archived any posts so they go back quite a few years and are a wealth of information...
Thanks for joining!
Dave

 

[bluemozzer]

Quick one for DaveSpectra
I have spoken with the mechanic looking at my car today, just would like to clarify the info you gave yesterday and let you know what they found. When you gave me the following info;

(1) +12v fed through the "inj" fuse. This supplies the power to the sensor
(2) Ground/Earth/Body. This supplies the ground return to the sensor
(3) Sensor output. This IS at +5volts and toggles (square wave output) between +5v and ground at the engine is turned over.

Was that listed by pin number, for example the +12v on pin 1. I have copied the pin layout diagram below as to what the workshop manual has them listed.

Diagram: See attachment

The mechanic was unaware of a 12v supply to the sensor as the there seems to be very limited info in the UK about the 2.9CRDi. from the info he had he was only looking for 5 volts on pin 2 and ground on pin 1. What he told me he had was;

Pin 3 = 1.3volt
Pin 2 = 0 volts
Pin 1 = Ground.

He is now going to look deeper into the 12 volt supply. I am however getting conflicting info as to where this 12 volts comes from. Let’s hope we see some light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[DavesSpectra]

Oh...BTW... RALPH
I re-read your post. The negative wire on the coils will pulsate "if" the ECM has made the decision to fire the coils. The positive lead will remain a constant 12v.
Usually either the cam or the crank sensor not outputting pulses will cause the ECM not to fire the coils. The ECM is usually not the problem. Check them fuses!!!
Dave

 

[bluemozzer]

Ralph,
It maybe simpler if you open your own thread as it could get confusing when replying to two seperate problems on the same thread.
Good luck with your problem.

 

[DavesSpectra]

bluemozzer...
(I have to keep you guys separate...)

The (1),(2),(3) is only to say that there usually are 3 wires and to differentiate between them...

The values (volts) you gave in your last post seem way off but my not working on a diesel engine I may be wrong... Your pins 1&2 both have 0v on them...that does not seem right... One of these two wires is probably BLACK with possibly a secondary stripe. This wire should be the ground lead for the sensor. You could have the mechanic check both with multimeter set to ohms scale, black lead to the body/frame/earth and the red lead to each of these leads. One of the leads should read 0 ohms and will be the ground wire, the other is probably the 12v feed that is missing the 12v (blown fuse/broken wire/ or bad connection within the wiring harness). I would "guess" the 1.3v connection is the sensor output going back to the ECM.

We need someone on this forum to confirm the wire colors and the voltages on the sensor(s) that lives in the UK and has a diesel.
Dave

 

[DavesSpectra]

It's just "FUN" keeping you guys straight!
Ralph is all ready here and we are working it out...
I have ADD so I do many things at one time and have learned to compensate for it after 63 years! If it bothers either of you.... I can start a pm with you but it defeats the knowledge post being available to all.
Dave

 

[bluemozzer]

Not a problem with me as long as we can make sure the responses don't get mixed up.

 

[bluemozzer]

Dave,
From what I assertained from the mechanic and the diagram I had attached to previous post the pin layout was as follows;

Pin 1 - (ground) was at 0 volts & continuity to ground
Pin 2 - (sensor to ECM) was at 0 volts
Pin 3 - (supply voltage) was at 1.3 volts.

That's if the pin layout is same as diagram.
Cheers
Paul

 

[DavesSpectra]

bluemozzer...
If that is true then putting 12v on pin 3 (where there is 1.3v) through an external inline 10~15 amp fuse...the car should start.. Then you will need to find where in the 12v supply line it's dropping 90% of the 12~13v supply voltage which sounds like a corrosion problem. See if pin 2 comes up to 5v and toggles between 0v and 5v.
Dave

 

[DavesSpectra]

Do you have the complete circuit diagram for the cpms feeding pin 3. That would be through the ignition switch and fuse? If so post it so we can get a look for trouble spots.
kiatechinfo.com has no info on European KIA diesels.
Dave

 

[bluemozzer]

Do you have the complete circuit diagram for the cpms feeding pin 3. That would be through the ignition switch and fuse? If so post it so we can get a look for trouble spots.
kiatechinfo.com has no info on European KIA diesels.
Dave

Unfortunately any info on the 2.9crdi is very limited here in the UK unless you work at Kia. Kiatechinfo.com is a very good source of info and it is a shame we dont have something similar in the UK.
I was thinking the same thing, putting a 12v supply on pin 3. That is exactly what i would do in my line of work once i have assertained 100% which pin was the supply voltage. I have told the garage what i think and hopefully we will have some positive news soon.
Paul