Kia Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 65 Posts

·
Registered
12 RIO 5 SX, 07 VW Passat 2.0L turbo 1952 Siata Diana
Joined
·
168 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am a retired mechanic, and retired owner of large do all service center. After fifty years in the business I am know as a good diagnostician of automobile problems. I apologize for the chest pounding, but I want you to know that am usually 99.9% correct when analyzing automotive problems.

A few months ago I purchased a 2011 Sorento that had 30KM on the clock.
The Sorento has a 3.5L V6, and is AWD. I test drove the car and gave it a thorough examination even though it was a Certified Kia. The Sorento was brought to me for testing with the engine running. The same for delivery. The first time the engine sat overnight I started it. It sounded like a rod knock that lasted 7 – 10 seconds. The rest of the day it seemed fine. However, the start-up knocking continued if the vehicle sat for six hours or more. I have spent three months trying to find the problem. I once thought it to be the lifters leaking down. This engine has solid lifters. All the time the problem seem to come from oil starvation after a long sit. Kia has a TIB that suggests the knocking problem stems from using an oil filter other than a Kia filter. I have changed the filter with a factory filter three times. I have tried different brand premium oils.I am presently running Mobile One 5W-20. The local Kia dealership has been very generous in allowing me to diagnose a warrantee vehicle, as long as I did no modification or damage.

I have found the problem, but have not found the solution. The problem is that the oil filter that sits on top of the engine, drains dry after a long engine sit. This drainage occurs even though the filter has a check-valve. I opened the filter canister after the car sat overnight. It was bone dry. The filter element was dry, whereas it normally is full of residual oil. I then filled the filter canister, put the top back on, and started the engine. There was absolutely no knock. There is one conclusion. The engine dry starts until the filter fills with oil.

I have called Kia who claims to have no technical assistance. However, they did get a technical specialist to speak to me. She claimed that my diagnostic
made sense, be she denied other reports of cold engine knock. Some time ago I wrote a Thread for this site and got 14 responses. The score was eight to six in favor of cold engine knock.

It is now off to the dealership to see what position I am in. My first demand would be for a new engine. Fat chance as I believe Kia is protecting themselves against a class action law suite.
 

·
Registered
2013 Sorento EX AWD V6 5 Pass, 2001 BMW 740 iL
Joined
·
21 Posts
Mine Did It Too

My 2011 started doing the same thing last summer. I took it to the dealer, whom proceeded to tell me that the engine had the wrong oil in it, mainly because they had not done the last oil change, and then cancelled the warranty on my engine. How they deduced that it had the wrong oil in it by just looking at it, I will never know, as they then did an oil change on it without my permission.

Ended up trading the vehicle back to them on a 2013, did okay financially. Found a more reputible dealer that is closer to where I live to do the maintenance.

Guess we will see how this one goes...
 

·
Registered
2013 Sorento Ex V6
Joined
·
293 Posts
I am a retired mechanic, and retired owner of large do all service center. After fifty years in the business I am know as a good diagnostician of automobile problems. I apologize for the chest pounding, but I want you to know that am usually 99.9% correct when analyzing automotive problems.

A few months ago I purchased a 2011 Sorento that had 30KM on the clock.
The Sorento has a 3.5L V6, and is AWD. I test drove the car and gave it a thorough examination even though it was a Certified Kia. The Sorento was brought to me for testing with the engine running. The same for delivery. The first time the engine sat overnight I started it. It sounded like a rod knock that lasted 7 – 10 seconds. The rest of the day it seemed fine. However, the start-up knocking continued if the vehicle sat for six hours or more. I have spent three months trying to find the problem. I once thought it to be the lifters leaking down. This engine has solid lifters. All the time the problem seem to come from oil starvation after a long sit. Kia has a TIB that suggests the knocking problem stems from using an oil filter other than a Kia filter. I have changed the filter with a factory filter three times. I have tried different brand premium oils.I am presently running Mobile One 5W-20. The local Kia dealership has been very generous in allowing me to diagnose a warrantee vehicle, as long as I did no modification or damage.

I have found the problem, but have not found the solution. The problem is that the oil filter that sits on top of the engine, drains dry after a long engine sit. This drainage occurs even though the filter has a check-valve. I opened the filter canister after the car sat overnight. It was bone dry. The filter element was dry, whereas it normally is full of residual oil. I then filled the filter canister, put the top back on, and started the engine. There was absolutely no knock. There is one conclusion. The engine dry starts until the filter fills with oil.

I have called Kia who claims to have no technical assistance. However, they did get a technical specialist to speak to me. She claimed that my diagnostic
made sense, be she denied other reports of cold engine knock. Some time ago I wrote a Thread for this site and got 14 responses. The score was eight to six in favor of cold engine knock.

It is now off to the dealership to see what position I am in. My first demand would be for a new engine. Fat chance as I believe Kia is protecting themselves against a class action law suite.
I am 100% with you on this. Start up in the morning drives me nuts. I am glad that you were able to confirm that in fact the oil filter was empty. Wonder if there is a remote filter adapter to fix it.

When I first went to my dealer and told them of the exact same thing you are noticing in detail, the service agent shortened it up quite a bit and said it made noise:eek:. Tech said noise was normal, thats after it was now warm. See attached. Went back, made her write it as I said, left it for 24 hrs, and then the tech stated, after 10 seconds, this is normal for this vehicle. :eek:

Can't wait to hear what your dealer says. As others on the forum state, they hear no noise on cold startup.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
2011 Kia Sorento EX V6 AWD & 2010 Hyundai Sonata SE
Joined
·
532 Posts
I am 100% with you on this. Start up in the morning drives me nuts. I am glad that you were able to confirm that in fact the oil filter was empty. Wonder if there is a remote filter adapter to fix it.

When I first went to my dealer and told them of the exact same thing you are noticing in detail, the service agent shortened it up quite a bit and said it made noise:eek:. Tech said noise was normal, thats after it was now warm. See attached. Went back, made her write it as I said, left it for 24 hrs, and then the tech stated, after 10 seconds, this is normal for this vehicle. :eek:

Can't wait to hear what your dealer says. As others on the forum state, they hear no noise on cold startup.
What do you mean 'they hear no noise on startup'? Almost every owner on here with the 3.5 hear some sort of clatter on startup. Some worse than others. It's just simply the nature of the beast. Unfortunately we have to just deal with it. There is no fix.
 

·
Registered
12 RIO 5 SX, 07 VW Passat 2.0L turbo 1952 Siata Diana
Joined
·
168 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I am 100% with you on this. Start up in the morning drives me nuts. I am glad that you were able to confirm that in fact the oil filter was empty. Wonder if there is a remote filter adapter to fix it.

When I first went to my dealer and told them of the exact same thing you are noticing in detail, the service agent shortened it up quite a bit and said it made noise:eek:. Tech said noise was normal, thats after it was now warm. See attached. Went back, made her write it as I said, left it for 24 hrs, and then the tech stated, after 10 seconds, this is normal for this vehicle. :eek:

Can't wait to hear what your dealer says. As others on the forum state, they hear no noise on cold startup.
Unfortunately your symptoms are more the case (mine too). I have seen a few engines with oil filters that sit to the topside of the engine. They used screw on oil filters with check valves. You had to punch two holes in the top of the filter with a pick, wait a few minutes, and remove the filter. If you did not perform this procedure the oil would pour out on the engine. What really concerns me is when I ask Kia how does the oil drain past the check valve, the claim it should not. The 3.5L V6 has an unusual oil filter mount. I cant find the way this mount directs the oil. A new housing is $70 through Kia discount parts. Summit Racing claims to have a filter relocation kit.
 

·
Registered
2013 Sorento, Suzuki V-Strom
Joined
·
506 Posts
My first demand would be for a new engine.
To what end? The new engine also has its filter on top. Send a used oil sample to a testing lab to see if there are an abnormal level of wear metals in the oil. If there are, take a look at some bearings it at all possible. Then you'll have some ammo...but still no solution.

Blackstone Laboratories is one testing lab that is good dealing with individuals, not just fleet managers. The test is US$25. Blackstone Labs

Many oil filters have an anti drainback valve, but none of these are very good valves---just a rubber flap that should not be expected to hold all the oil back for long. But, you might try different brands of filters to see if there is a brand that does offer better results than you've had. Perhaps members of this forum who have the same engine noise could work together to try the various filters--WIX/NAPA-Gold, Baldwin/Hastings, Purolator, Pure 1, Bosch, Mobil 1, Royal Purple, etc., etc. There are only a few filter makers, but they have different quality levels among their various brands. Clarcor makes Baldwin, identical Hastings, lower quality Casite, others. Affinia makes WIX and identical NAPA-Gold. Mann+Hummel makes Purolator. Fram's better quality Tough Guard and Ultra might work. Fram also now owns Champion Laboratories that make oil filters for Mobil 1, K&N, Royal Purple, STP, TRD, Mopar, Champ, Ecore, and others.

None of these aftermarket oil filters should cause any warranty headache. If you're trying for a warranty claim on this problem, do put on a Kia filter before taking it into the dealer. As long as you use the filter listed in the filter maker's catalog for that engine, the filter maker is liable for damage to the engine caused by that filter--very unlikely.
 

·
Registered
2013 Sorento Ex V6
Joined
·
293 Posts
Many oil filters have an anti drainback valve, but none of these are very good valves---just a rubber flap that should not be expected to hold all the oil back for long. But, you might try different brands of filters to see if there is a brand that does offer better results than you've had. Perhaps members of this forum who have the same engine noise could work together to try the various filters--WIX/NAPA-Gold, Baldwin/Hastings, Purolator, Pure 1, Bosch, Mobil 1, Royal Purple, etc., etc. There are only a few filter makers, but they have different quality levels among their various brands. Clarcor makes Baldwin, identical Hastings, lower quality Casite, others. Affinia makes WIX and identical NAPA-Gold. Mann+Hummel makes Purolator. Fram's better quality Tough Guard and Ultra might work. Fram also now owns Champion Laboratories that make oil filters for Mobil 1, K&N, Royal Purple, STP, TRD, Mopar, Champ, Ecore, and others.
.
I guess you could do some engineering analysis (experiment;)) with different filters. If it is in fact leaking down, and I believe it is, you will loose very little oil by just changing out the filter. Cost of the filter till you get one that does not leak down. Do it the night before, run the engine, come back in the morning and see if it worked. ??
 

·
Registered
2001 sportage ex 2wd, 2002 Grand prix GTP (for now) 2015 Jetta SE (soon with more boost)
Joined
·
62 Posts
Hmm, I just got a kia sportage 2.7 v6 (2006) and it does the same thing on real cold start. I wonder if the cause is the same. Ive noticed its worse on hot days
 

·
Registered
12 RIO 5 SX, 07 VW Passat 2.0L turbo 1952 Siata Diana
Joined
·
168 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I have tried different oil filter manufactures. The problem is the same. It is just plain oil starvation. The knock you hear is part(s) of the engine banging without lubrication. For those that claim they dont hear it, try putting your car in a garage, wait 6+ hours, and do a cold start. The noise isn't very aparent when the car is outside. Bottom line is I have a 100KM drive train warranty By the way, the 100KM drive train warranty is NOT transferable.
The cost is over $1000.00.
 

·
Banned
2013 Sorento EX V6 AWD
Joined
·
707 Posts
To be honest, I don't hear this knock you guys are talking about. I'm using a factory KIA filter and running Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 full synthetic oil. But even the factory fill didn't do this.

My oil change procedure is documented here (search my posts) with pics. If this is endemic to the 3.5L engine, then why do I not hear it?

**shrug**
 

·
Registered
Cerato S Hatch Auto
Joined
·
1,236 Posts
Seems dumb to put a filter on the top of the engine; most engines I've dealt with have filters screwed somewher near the bottom of the engine. Admittedly, some are hard to get off, but at least they can't drain empty.

Just a crazy thought... Is it possible to bypass the filter connections and run with no filter? With the engine broken in, there shouldn't be much need for a filter, or am I wrong? Would no filter be better than the noise?
 

·
Banned
2013 Sorento EX V6 AWD
Joined
·
707 Posts
Seems dumb to put a filter on the top of the engine; most engines I've dealt with have filters screwed somewher near the bottom of the engine. Admittedly, some are hard to get off, but at least they can't drain empty.

Just a crazy thought... Is it possible to bypass the filter connections and run with no filter? With the engine broken in, there shouldn't be much need for a filter, or am I wrong? Would no filter be better than the noise?
BMW does it the same way. Not sure about bypassing the filter. Even a well running engine slowly wears out and produces metal flecks in the oil. You don't want those winding up on smooth bearing surfaces.

Best,
 

·
Registered
2011 Sorento AWD V6 SX Cherry Black
Joined
·
231 Posts
I am not positive, but I was told that the 3.5 engine uses solid lifters as well as a chain driven crank (This I know is true). If so, my experence with old Ford 312 V8s was pretty much the same. Initial slight noise on start up. Part of the design. You can go to Google "Engine Oil Filter Study " by Knize and read about the results of his detailed filter tests and recommendations. It may not have the latest Fram Tough Guard filter tested, but most any other you see on the auto store shelves. Also, I stilll recommend sythetic oil because the latest have an excellent "stick" and shear factor which helps on cold starts. :)
 

·
Registered
2015 Sorento EX V6 AWD Ebony Black
Joined
·
1,153 Posts
The 2.4 4cyl. engine also has solid lifters, & a timing chain (instead of a timing belt). The sad part is, according to the manual, there is no adjustment on the lifters, you have to replace parts if they wear down. :rolleyes:

I remember, The old Ford V8's required a homemade copper tubing oiling system to the valve covers to keep the lifters wet, or it sounded like a cement mixer.

I owned mostly Chevy's at this time, so thought it was funny :)
 

·
Registered
2015 Sorento EX V6 AWD Ebony Black
Joined
·
1,153 Posts
I am a retired mechanic, and retired owner of large do all service center. After fifty years in the business I am know as a good diagnostician of automobile problems. I apologize for the chest pounding, but I want you to know that am usually 99.9% correct when analyzing automotive problems.

A few months ago I purchased a 2011 Sorento that had 30KM on the clock.
The Sorento has a 3.5L V6, and is AWD. I test drove the car and gave it a thorough examination even though it was a Certified Kia. The Sorento was brought to me for testing with the engine running. The same for delivery. The first time the engine sat overnight I started it. It sounded like a rod knock that lasted 7 – 10 seconds. The rest of the day it seemed fine. However, the start-up knocking continued if the vehicle sat for six hours or more. I have spent three months trying to find the problem. I once thought it to be the lifters leaking down. This engine has solid lifters. All the time the problem seem to come from oil starvation after a long sit. Kia has a TIB that suggests the knocking problem stems from using an oil filter other than a Kia filter. I have changed the filter with a factory filter three times. I have tried different brand premium oils.I am presently running Mobile One 5W-20. The local Kia dealership has been very generous in allowing me to diagnose a warrantee vehicle, as long as I did no modification or damage.

I have found the problem, but have not found the solution. The problem is that the oil filter that sits on top of the engine, drains dry after a long engine sit. This drainage occurs even though the filter has a check-valve. I opened the filter canister after the car sat overnight. It was bone dry. The filter element was dry, whereas it normally is full of residual oil. I then filled the filter canister, put the top back on, and started the engine. There was absolutely no knock. There is one conclusion. The engine dry starts until the filter fills with oil.

I have called Kia who claims to have no technical assistance. However, they did get a technical specialist to speak to me. She claimed that my diagnostic
made sense, be she denied other reports of cold engine knock. Some time ago I wrote a Thread for this site and got 14 responses. The score was eight to six in favor of cold engine knock.

It is now off to the dealership to see what position I am in. My first demand would be for a new engine. Fat chance as I believe Kia is protecting themselves against a class action law suite.
I don't own a Sorento, but find the way the filter is mounted (upside down apparently?) is shocking! For the exact reasons that you mentioned. If I owned a Sorento, I would definitely get an oil filter relocation kit, because it is damaging to your engine as it is, and I doubt Kia would ever do anything to correct this, unless they're put against the wall.
 

·
Registered
06 Sedona LX, 06 Sedona EX, 14 Forte EX, 11 Sportage EX, 11 Forte 5-door SX, 15 K900 VIP+
Joined
·
1,143 Posts
Yes, the Lambda (3.3, 3.5, 3.8L), Theta (2.0, 2.4L) and Gamma (1.6L) all use solid lifters. That's where the majority of the start-up noise comes from. It looks like on the newest engine designs they are incorporating hydraulic lifters. The Tau (4.6, 5.0L) and Nu (1.8, 2.0L) have hydraulic lifters...and they don't make the noise at start up. Personally I kind of like the idea of direct-action on the valve, but then again, the noise has never been a bother to me.
 

·
Registered
2013 Sorento Ex V6
Joined
·
293 Posts
I have tried different oil filter manufactures. The problem is the same. It is just plain oil starvation. The knock you hear is part(s) of the engine banging without lubrication. For those that claim they dont hear it, try putting your car in a garage, wait 6+ hours, and do a cold start. The noise isn't very aparent when the car is outside.
.
If I do a cold start outside while I am inside and the window/door closed, I only hear it slightly. If inside the garage, its really loud. Opened the hood once and listened, OMG.

I am the original owner of a 65 Pontiac, when I change the oil filter, it sounds horrible for the first couple of seconds while the oil pump fills the filter and the rest of the engine, then back to normal. However, every start after that, hot or Cold the noise is not there.

I don't know the oil lubrication path once the oil leaves the filter on a 3.5, ones I am familiar with goes to the crank for the main bearings first off then camshaft bearings and hyd lifters.

There is so much plastic "stuff" in the way to even look at the 3.5 engine to determine if a remote oil filter is doable.

Call me hard headed :D but you can't convince me that running an engine not under oil pressure is normal, even though it may only last 3-10 seconds.
 

·
Registered
2013 Sorento Ex V6
Joined
·
293 Posts
To be honest, I don't hear this knock you guys are talking about. I'm using a factory KIA filter and running Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 full synthetic oil. But even the factory fill didn't do this.

My oil change procedure is documented here (search my posts) with pics. If this is endemic to the 3.5L engine, then why do I not hear it?

**shrug**
Sauron, By any chance do you do your own oil/filter change? And if you do, have you noticed the oil drained out of the filter, assuming you do it with cold engine? Just courious:p
 

·
Banned
2013 Sorento EX V6 AWD
Joined
·
707 Posts
Sauron, By any chance do you do your own oil/filter change? And if you do, have you noticed the oil drained out of the filter, assuming you do it with cold engine? Just courious:p
Yes, I always change my own oil. When I open the filter canister it's usually mostly empty with maybe an inch of oil pooled at the bottom. Pretty much the same as all the BMW's I've ever changed the oil on.

I'm inclined to think this brief clatter (for those that experience it) is harmless. If you use a quality synthetic oil, there's always going to be a film on the moving parts that will be more than enough until you get some oil pressure after a couple of seconds.
 

·
Super Moderator
1995 Procharged Mustang Cobra, 2021 Sportage EX w/EX tech package
Joined
·
4,690 Posts
To the OP, you keep saying a 100,000KM warranty, but your profile says your in FL. Do you live in the states? If so, you mean miles correct?
 
1 - 20 of 65 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top