[sargeants]

Well I've had a busy month and a half of ownership, and already put nearly 4000kms/2500miles on the car.

I kept thinking that I just needed to get used to the clutch and drive-by-wire in this car, but didn't think it'd take this much to figure out. I'm getting decent mileage so it's not really affecting that. Also figured that since I've driven my Elantra with rebuilt clutch master & slave cylinders without the restrictor plate/spring, and SS clutch line things were just different; also to have my second car as a 27year old Fiero with a stage2 clutch and dualseal slave cylinder I was just used to the more effort/feedback.

I started to realize this week that it's not just me needing to get used to the car's clutch and gas pedal... but that the accelerator pedal needs adjusting.
I go from idle ~600-700rpm to ~1500-1750rpm with the slightest touch of the pedal. I cannot get the engine to idle at say 1000 or 1200. This is rather difficult while driving in stop-n-go traffic. Having to really feather the clutch or over-rev the engine (2000) to begin moving... then keeping the engine above the 1500 mark. If I don't keep it above that mark when I let off the pedal and start back on it's a jerky ride. I'll have to then feather the clutch back on with or without throttle.

Anyone else have this issue? Is it normal for the Rio?

I was looking around and found this thread and was planning on giving it a try to adjust things. This was before I realized where my problem lies.

Best Throttle mod ever - Page 2 - Kia Forte Forum : Sedan / Koup / Forte5 Forums

 

[yiannos18]

I started to realize this week that it's not just me needing to get used to the car's clutch and gas pedal... but that the accelerator pedal needs adjusting.
I go from idle ~600-700rpm to ~1500-1750rpm with the slightest touch of the pedal. I cannot get the engine to idle at say 1000 or 1200. This is rather difficult while driving in stop-n-go traffic. Having to really feather the clutch or over-rev the engine (2000) to begin moving... then keeping the engine above the 1500 mark. If I don't keep it above that mark when I let off the pedal and start back on it's a jerky ride. I'll have to then feather the clutch back on with or without throttle.

Anyone else have this issue? Is it normal for the Rio?

I've got the auto transmission and I believe it would be common across our cars, due to the electric throttle. I believe its the accelerator response curve that has been tuned in that manner.
The 'old school' throttle cables had a linear response, which makes it vastly easier to increase and decrease revs, but now with electronic throttle, the response graph looks something like a logarithmic graph then beyond 50-60% it turns into a linear response. It's silly but hey, it's been tuned for economy, not outright driveability...

 

[uthmani]

I've got the auto transmission and I believe it would be common across our cars, due to the electric throttle. I believe its the accelerator response curve that has been tuned in that manner.
The 'old school' throttle cables had a linear response, which makes it vastly easier to increase and decrease revs, but now with electronic throttle, the response graph looks something like a logarithmic graph then beyond 50-60% it turns into a linear response. It's silly but hey, it's been tuned for economy, not outright driveability...

I've got the auto transmission too and find that 1st gear is useless! I can't see how revving to 3000rpm is good for economy. I try selecting 2nd gear when taking off as its much smoother and seems more economical.

 

[sargeants]

Okay - but how can having no throttle response between idle and 1500 be helpful for fuel economy or ease of driving?
The car wants me to shift around 2000-2500 depending on the gear and speed and other good things, which is all fine for economy, but if I ever need to ease off the throttle I'm into that dead zone and going below 1750-1500 it drops to idle and really slows down. So then I attempt to apply a little bit of throttle and I jump back up to 1500 with no slight control in between. That's where the jerky-ness comes in. So I find myself how either really feathering the clutch (can't be good for longevity) or holding the idle up into 3-4K while driving.
Makes the drive fun as I'm in the start of the 'power-band', but it gets old while driving in the city.

 

[yiannos18]

I've got the auto transmission too and find that 1st gear is useless! I can't see how revving to 3000rpm is good for economy. I try selecting 2nd gear when taking off as its much smoother and seems more economical.

the motor starts to produce decent torque around 3000rpm, because our peak comes in around 4000-4500ish rpm. Peak power is just beyond 6000rpm. What I've found is that accelerating to 2500rpm then backing off to allow the auto to change into 2nd is the best way of going about maximising economy (I know this because I'm a virtually broke uni student )

Okay - but how can having no throttle response between idle and 1500 be helpful for fuel economy or ease of driving?
The car wants me to shift around 2000-2500 depending on the gear and speed and other good things, which is all fine for economy, but if I ever need to ease off the throttle I'm into that dead zone and going below 1750-1500 it drops to idle and really slows down. So then I attempt to apply a little bit of throttle and I jump back up to 1500 with no slight control in between. That's where the jerky-ness comes in. So I find myself how either really feathering the clutch (can't be good for longevity) or holding the idle up into 3-4K while driving.
Makes the drive fun as I'm in the start of the 'power-band', but it gets old while driving in the city.

The only thing I can imagine is that it's making sure the power comes on in such a manner that it would be efficient. Granted, 99% of the time it never will because the lack of throttle response is frustrating so we give it a bit more to wake it up. I can't comment for the manual because I don't own it, neither have I driven one. Maybe they've also programmed it to be like an integrated 'anti-stall', where the throttle is opened wide enough to not let the car stall. I don't know for sure, but it is plausible.
Then again, I think we've all come to the conclusion that the electronic throttle is shit.

 

[uthmani]

the motor starts to produce decent torque around 3000rpm, because our peak comes in around 4000-4500ish rpm. Peak power is just beyond 6000rpm. What I've found is that accelerating to 2500rpm then backing off to allow the auto to change into 2nd is the best way of going about maximising economy (I know this because I'm a virtually broke uni student )

I do the same I believe the shift point from 1st-2nd should have been moved forward..

 

[OzSLS]

hi sargeants - have a look through my build thread (in sig), i think i also made a thread about it specifically - in short, driving a manual Rio, particularly in heavy traffic is a horrific experience, as far as taking off goes.. Ours bucks quite badly sometimes, and yes maintaining slow speed in first is impossible unless you want to look like you drove a manual for the first time in your life every time you take off. And yep, giving it too much revs allows for a beautiful takeoff, but anything in the slow to normal takeoff range makes it buck, and usually AFTER the clutch has engaged. People have hypothesised that it's the throttle cut-out or 'regulator' switch basically dictating how much digital throttle you're allowed to have, and on our car, it's an abomination. If it's any consolation to you, ours got much worse after about 10,000KM lol!

 

[OzSLS]

the motor starts to produce decent torque around 3000rpm, because our peak comes in around 4000-4500ish rpm.]

peak torque on the gamma 3 1.6 comes in around 3000-3500rpm despite what wiki says. It's due to the dual stage intake - the air intake has four valves in it which change their characteristics from power to torque at various revs. Up to 2000rpm they are in short mode, which maximises power for an internal combustion engine. Between 2000-4000rpm the valves move and force the air through a longer runner, which maximises torque. It's an ingenious system on a little buzz-box. Watch your tacho when you're driving next, and you'll feel a difference as you hit 2000rpm, then all the way to 4000rpm. It's most noticeable when at WOT, you get a good surge to 4000rpm then it basically runs out of breath because it switches the intake valves back to the short runner formation.

It's what i love the most about this engine.

See pic for reference:

 

[sargeants]

Thanks OZ - was hoping someone with a manual would chime in. Thanks others for at least confirming that the Rio's shift points are odd.

I guess it's a little comforting to know that I'm not the only one that's having a problem. Could you do a simple test for me? In neutral, see if you can get hold a rev at 1000-1200, or is it either idle or 1500+? Sure at speed I can have the engine running at 1200, but it's being held there by the engine either slowing down or struggling to pull up to 1500+.

Side note - I had a Fiat 500 rental for a week before I got REX, and found it's auto shift points to be horrid! 1st would hold up till about 3000, then SLAM into second, and more gracefully into the rest. I found myself using the slow shiftronic to select 2nd while stopped so I wouldn't have to headbang in an automatic.

That IS a pretty ingenious intake setup. As for getting worse at 10000kms... well I'm almost halfway there already.

 

[OzSLS]

i'll try it tomorrow, but yeah i think it can sit around that rpm range, but to be honest i don't remember trying it lately - i'll report back when i've tried.

yeah the 500 would probably rev the hell out of first as that's the only way of getting it to actually move anywhere haha. The Abarth versions can be a bit of fun but the standard 500 is a bit of a heap.

back to your original topic again, i remember a few weeks back i was sitting on Hoddle St in Melbourne which is one of the busiest roads in the city area. I was at a red light in the right of three lanes, watching a little black, quite obviously manual Rio waiting to turn across traffic. He was there rolling it a bit and as he took off you could see it buck like a dog in the process. Either he was very fresh with manuals or it's just another manual rio!

 

[mem5449]

Sargeants, Yes, you are precisely right about the throttle. I also FEEL your irritation. Even with a 'surgeon's precision' on the gas pedal, its hard NOT to do jack-rabbit starts cause throttle goes from 600rpm to 1700rpm almost instantly. This is definitely NOT helping MPG. Don't know what Kia is thinking. Also, you have to PLAN to use the throttle earlier than you might want because of slow response (eg. coming out of turns). Case in point, sit parked and just 'blip' (quick-on-off) the gas pedal as often as ya like.. tach won't move. No change in rpm.

The software that controls the electronic throttle control on the Rio SUCKS! So does the electronic power steering (save this for another post). I have had my 2013 Rio EX for 6mos now and there IS no getting used to it, especially if you have a second vehicle (that drives correctly). Heck, my 89 Toyota pickup drives more smoothly than my Rio. That's SAD considering where today's tech should be. Non-linear throttle control and 'grabby' brakes (not too sensitive, I mean don't stop linearly) certainly make the Rio an IRRITATING car to drive in stop-n-go or city traffic.

As soon as I can find someone to shoot cam from the passengers seat, I'm going to post a video about the flaws with the Kia Rio (any volunteers?). MAYBE, just MAYBE, Kia will address them. I know my dealer has certainly blown me off, stating they are unfix-able characteristics of this car. At least I might help some other poor shopper avoid 6yr 'payment jail' for a car they don't enjoy driving.

 

[OzSLS]

mem you sound like me to an extent - is your car a manual? i'm guessing so from your 'jack rabbit starts' comment?

there is a cutout switch on the clutch, brake and essentially the throttle pedal too which controls how much rpm the car THINKS you should have. It's the stupidest thing i've ever dealt with and makes the manual version useless in many regards. the only way to get it to give you adequate throttle is to do a full throttle start. Anything less than that will result in bucking and bogging of the engine on clutch takeup as the electronics sap away the throttle you're actually giving it. It's the worst manual car i've ever owned, and doesn't have to be at all. It's purely fuel economy, that's all it'll be there for. Some smartass move to make it more appealing to the buying public.

you can actually feel the throttle fall away from you without changing the position of your foot, and yes when the car feels you actually need that amount, it'll feed it straight back on and the car will take off stupidly quick with no change in your foot position. We drive in peak hour stop start crap every day and it's a very tiring car to drive. I pride myself on SMOOTH manual driving, so smooth you won't feel the changes when i'm driving a traditional manual, but in this, 9 times out of 10 that's impossible.

worst part about all this is it's ruining my clutch, the rollercoaster RPM's are slipping the hell out of it on a daily basis. 30,000KM and the thing is half stuffed.

however re: the brakes, for modern brakes they're not too bad, try driving a Corolla! ON, OFF, ON, OFF.

 

[PLP]

let me chime in here, too.
I can report EXACTLY same problem as sargeants describes; however, it is in 2009 Elantra (2.0L, I4, 5 spd M/T).
It drives me crazy. Since it has bigger engine than Rio I can easily start rolling without touching gas, but it is impossible to keep some steady speed at very low/gentle gas (1st or 2nd gear). Anything in area of idle to 2000 RPM - non existent.

So, I took it to dealer and I was told "that is normal".
WTH? How can it be normal?
So I was told... "it is designed to help you pull off, meaning you will not bog down the engine". Why some computer makes decisions for me?

Further explanation involved design of the throttle body. Supposedly there is some "notch" or some other kind of crap that does not allow the throttle to slowly open. Once touched it will bring RPM high.

If you ask me - that is stupid design.

Video taken by me trying to see if it is TPS related, but I am not sure now... I need to talk to some more experienced guys.
Readbacks (from ScanGaugeII): TPS, RPM, fuel use in L/hr, and coolant temp in deg C

I was trying to gently increase engine speed and once it got to whatever speed, I wanted to slowly slow it down. As you see - nothing between idle and 2000. TPS seems to not change - there is some movement detected, but engine response does not correlate to TPS readbacks.

 

[OzSLS]

yes it's just a terrible FBW throttle, plain and simple

it doesnt react like a normal throttle does because it isnt one. it's like a room of monkeys came up with the algorithms. it'll essentially be TPS related but more likely the code being fed to/from the TPS

i'll try in my rio tonight and video it

 

[OzSLS]

i tried it in our Rio tonight, almost impossible to get it to hold 1000rpm or just above, although i got it to do it once, then it did something odd - i'll explain in a bit when i get the video up.

 

[OzSLS]

ok here we go - pause the video to view the text as each text insert is only 7sec long. This HAS to be the cause of my manual related issues.. it makes perfect sense.

 

[TJ85]

I dont understand much of this problem, mainly the brain not yet switched on (thought today was Saturday and almost went Mt Hotham instead of going to work...). The bits that I can make out is the electric throttle. Those bits I understand even with brain not completely on.

Our initial torque spread is another part. It is like a blind man on a pogo stick at low rpms. Its common acrose all the family engines (Hyundai/Kia, Mitsubishi). Its not as bad as what it is in Mitsubishi's 4B engines.

My car dont seem to do this though. The bunny hops. I can do smooth take offs and dont have the bi-polar throttle issues like in the videos. Then again my car not stock either. Will get videos of what mine does after work and picture of our torque curve

 

[OzSLS]

yeah well if i could get a custom tune done, i wouldn't even go for power/toruqe i'd simply program in so the driver has access to revs between 600-1500RPM!

 

[uthmani]

I find the acceleration on this car jerky as well (I have an auto)

On a side note; 1st gear is almost useless and I manually "shift" into 2nd when at the lights. Gives much smoother acceleration.

Also, why does this car feel the need to downshift or lock the torque converter when I take my foot off the accelerator as I approach the lights? Any other car I have driven the revs fall down to around 1200rpm. I would have thought this is one more reason this car is so bad in start-stop traffic.

My fathers taxi gets around 9-10L/100km in his 4-litre V6 and I get around 8-9L/100km in a 1.6-litre 4 cylinder!

 

[sargeants]

Yay - more people to join me in the accelerator pedal annoyances!

Will have to check the videos at home.

One of the reasons I got the manual was so that I'd be more in control of how the car drove. I don't want some stupid computer saying that I can't have an RPM range because it'd be easier to drive. IT'S NOT EASIER WITHOUT THAT RANGE!!!

Try to hold 20km/h in 2nd gear - I dare you... actually don't, you might need a neck brace. That's the average speed I get (on the highway ) everynight going home. This is why I can't get any 'decent' fuel ratings for my highway time... Though still averaging at the city rating, I think is pretty good. 6.9avg beats my previous car's 8.4avg.