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Discussion Starter #1
I am helping a friend work on his Sportage and it hasn't been started in almost a year but ran great but was parked due to the rear ring and pinion being run dry. Fixed rear end and installed a new clutch but now it won't start. Motor turns over great but doesn't seem to be getting fuel (plugs are dry and tried starting fluid) and no spark (hooked spark tester set at 3/8" gap). I have gone through every fuse and checked with an ohm meter, bench tested relays and they checked out and went through and cleaned all the ground under the hood. I just the fuel pump through the relay pins and it turned on. One question i do have is should you hear the pump turn on with the key for any length of time because it is currently not. I have followed as much wiring under the car as I can without tearing off good wire loom. I hooked up a code reader and no codes are displayed. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Before I go replacing parts I would like to do some troubleshooting.
 

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Greetings,

Recommend disconnecting fuel line leading from the fuel filter (in between battery and intake manifold) -> at the back rail (banjo bolt), (or at the fuel filter) route the fuel line into a suitable container, and re-jumper fuel pump at the diagnostic connector - see if the fuel pump is delivering fuel to the motor, as a basic test..

IIRC there is a ground point on the transmission w/ the older Sporty's: at the transmission mount, behind the starter - would check there to make sure any ground cables present have been hooked back up also,

HTH & Regards,
GottaCruise
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you for the reply. I checked all the grounds and yes you are correct, there is a ground that connects behind the starter. Looks like a 4 gauge lead. I just checked the fuel flow post fuel filter (banjo bolt was extremely tight) and had good fuel flow. I am not sure the pins to jump at the diagnostic connection so I have been doing it where the fuel pump relay is located. I checked for fuel flow while cranking and it is not pumping.


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02 Sportage 4x4...66 Shelby GT350...70 Mercury Cyclone Spoiler
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Thank you for the reply. I checked all the grounds and yes you are correct, there is a ground that connects behind the starter. Looks like a 4 gauge lead. I just checked the fuel flow post fuel filter (banjo bolt was extremely tight) and had good fuel flow. I am not sure the pins to jump at the diagnostic connection so I have been doing it where the fuel pump relay is located. I checked for fuel flow while cranking and it is not pumping.

Don't know the specifics of your vehicle, but I have an 02 Sporty 4DR AT 4wd. The pump won't run with just the key on as most vehicles do. You have to jump the terminals to make it run. I spent many hours troubleshooting this issue on mine. I purchased a shop manual for mine, and any fuel system troubleshooting requires you to jump the terminals to get the pump to run. It should pump if you are cranking the motor over though. So, it appears your fuel pump is not grounding. Not sure how you are jumping the relays. A good way to troubleshoot the relays is to get a piece of stranded wire, take the insulation off, then separate the strands. Pull the relay out, and wrap a strand of wire around each terminal, then plug the relay back in with the strands running up next to the relay body. Now you can measure where and when the power is applied to each terminal.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I was able to test the relays with an extra harness I had that was for some hella fog lamps that used that same relay so it made bench testing with a shop battery easy. It almost seems as though the ignition switch isn't telling the ECM that it is in the on position. But I haven't convinced myself of this yet because there is some type of emissions pump on the front of the motor that comes on with the key in the on position. The only knowns that are issues are the cat was cut off (180,000 miles currently so no surprise) and there is a broken wire on the O2 sensor after where the cat would be. None of these to my knowledge would cause the no spark or fuel and it ran before in this condition except for possibly the broken wire right at the O2 sensor but it looks weathered. Has anyone used a spark tester to verify if I'm getting a correct spark reading or this is how to test on a Kia? The only spark tester I have is a CDI electronics 8 post tester and I have it set at 3/8" and most of the time I test at 1/2" but wanted to see if I was even getting a weak spark.


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02 Sportage 4x4...66 Shelby GT350...70 Mercury Cyclone Spoiler
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I was able to test the relays with an extra harness I had that was for some hella fog lamps that used that same relay so it made bench testing with a shop battery easy. It almost seems as though the ignition switch isn't telling the ECM that it is in the on position. But I haven't convinced myself of this yet because there is some type of emissions pump on the front of the motor that comes on with the key in the on position. The only knowns that are issues are the cat was cut off (180,000 miles currently so no surprise) and there is a broken wire on the O2 sensor after where the cat would be. None of these to my knowledge would cause the no spark or fuel and it ran before in this condition except for possibly the broken wire right at the O2 sensor but it looks weathered. Has anyone used a spark tester to verify if I'm getting a correct spark reading or this is how to test on a Kia? The only spark tester I have is a CDI electronics 8 post tester and I have it set at 3/8" and most of the time I test at 1/2" but wanted to see if I was even getting a weak spark.

I guess I don't completely understand your testing setup. Are you supplying the power to the socket to make the pump run? The main relay, and the fuel pump relay next to it work in tandem. Have you verified power or not while cranking the engine? Again, I don't believe you will have power to the pump unless the motor is turning over. How did you test for fuel when cranking? If you use the wire strands on the relay terminals, you could hook a test light to the appropriate terminals and check while cranking. I usually use a timing light to test for spark. Won't really give you a strength indication, but will indicate power to or not. Maybe you have already verified all this, so this is just some additional info that may help. Again, I have an 02 so the setup may be different. Also, the sporty relays are problematic if you don't use the specific one. There are many threads about the relay problems. Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yes I am jumping it in the socket for the relay. It currently had Bosch 30 amp relays in it that are working as they should. I am not supplying power to the socket to make the pump run. I'm jumping pin 30 to 87 according to the diagram on the side of the relay which is the load circuit.


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Those appear to be the correct relays:

(Both) outputs 87 energized by 30,

85 & 86 are the coil trigger..

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Silly question, but have you checked (all) fuses in the Engine Compartment fuse box and Passenger Cabin fuse box for continuity?

*If using direct wire jumper method at the relay socket, be sure to use a (3) lead jumper w/ 10 gauge or heavier wire:

(30) blade should supply power to (both) (87) blades.. or else circuits will not be energized..

Would also be confirming (+12) volt supplied to the Ignition Coil pack lead, and (+12) volt supplied to the Injectors.. (both are (negative) triggered for firing by the ECM, firing is indicated by (Crank) and (Cam) sensor position.)

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If electrical Q/A's good, then would as a sanity check pull the top timing cover and verify basic (Static) mechanical timing: a broken or failed timing belt would cause the (Crank) and (Cam) sensors to be out-of-time - the ECM will never trigger ignition / fuel injectors if the TB is bad..

HTH & Regards,
GottaCruise
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Yes I have visually check and ohm'd every fuse in the sporty inside and out but thank you for saying both blades of 87 on the relay because I have only check one blade thanking back on it and only checked continuity and not under a load. This evening I will check it out and get back to you with the results.


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Discussion Starter #13
No doubt in my mind the relays are good. Checked with ohm meter between 30 and both 87 pins with relay energized and was good and then hooked power to pin 30 and energized relay and got 12 volts at both 87's. time to check timing belt and injector/coil packs.


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Discussion Starter #14
I have checked the timing belt and it is good. Did a compression check and it was also good. I have been looking at the wiring diagram for this sporty and is it the blue/white wire that tells the ecm that it is ready to start? I am not getting any voltage at the blue/white with the ignition on at the ECM. I checked the voltage behind the instrument cluster on the blue/white and it was .87 volts.
 

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I have checked the timing belt and it is good. Did a compression check and it was also good. I have been looking at the wiring diagram for this sporty and is it the blue/white wire that tells the ecm that it is ready to start? I am not getting any voltage at the blue/white with the ignition on at the ECM. I checked the voltage behind the instrument cluster on the blue/white and it was .87 volts.
According to the manual, that is C211-27 - EGI Main Relay control, and you should be seeing .9 volts at the connector,

It sounds like you have a (break) in wiring in-between the dash and the ECM connector.

Source:
(Thanks to DavesSpectra for posting online)

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-YuNuTyh57XUXZKRnlLMV9sMTA&usp=sharing

Group21-1.PDF, page 21-5,


https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-YuNuTyh57XVkQ5TUdvd001VXc&usp=sharing&tid=0B-YuNuTyh57XUXZKRnlLMV9sMTA

Elect03.PDF, page 25 (Sequential MultiPort Fuel Injection 2.0L DOHC )
 

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Discussion Starter #16


Thank you for the reply. I would love to dig through the diagrams but google docs isn't opening the PDF's? Another question I have is the fuel system cycled on and off through the white/blue wire from the ECM to the fuel relay through ground (fuel system off, white/blue 12V. Fuel system on, white/blue ~.845 mV)? I guess my main goal was to find the wire that is the source from the ignition that tells the ECM that the car is in the start position. Last night I broke down and ordered a crank angle sensor. Usually throwing parts at something without knowing the fault is totally against my religion but I am kind of running out of ideas.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Cancel the not being able to view PDF's, I guess I needed to wake up and log into my google account. Very helpful!
 

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I know what you are asking, e.g. exactly (what) tells the ECM it is good to fire - that's the 'holy grail' of questions..

Will try to help w/ the limited time I have, but would first ask you (confirm) continuity on the white/blue wire from the dash -> over to the ECM connector plug as a basic check,

*Look at the schematics / look for the connector in-line between the ECM, the location is listed after the schematic, check from that point -> to the ECM..

If continuity is good, do an ohm / resistance check also.. anything above .1 ohm may indicate corrosion, burning, or partial break in wire..


Please post what you find, I will try to help.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Do you mean blue/white? That goes from the malfunction indicator light to the ECM? If so it is good. I checked continuity from ground under hood off the plate on the rear of the intake to the pin on the ECM connector an got .7 ohms. Couldn't find any spec on that. The new crank angle sensor made no change. What is the procedure for matching up a used ECM so I don't have to get it reprogrammed?


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Discussion Starter #20
My other question is if you have a bad ECM will it give a dtc and with it be an enhanced dtc or generic. I have not purchased the module for enhanced dtc's but will do so if it is recommended.


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