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But what I don't like is when people assume, oh the manufacturer did it right and changing anything on the factory specs/settings will be detrimental and worse for your car, etc... We all know that's not true.
Actually, we don't know and I suspect that is far less true today than in the past. The car market is highly competitive and I don't know any manufacturer that would leave better performance on the table and lose a sale to a competitor. Engine performance is always a compromise between speed, mileage, and safety. You can tune a car for speed and lose significant mpg. You can reduce the safety margin and eke out a bit more performance. But there is just far less performance to eke out of an engine today than in the past because of the sophistication of the ECU and speed of modern computer chips. If you really want increased 0-60 times, just change the drive ratio and shift points -- mileage will suck and your top speed will be reduced, but you can go like a bat out of hell. I've made these mods in track cars I've had in the past. You'll find a lot of people use their "experience" by trying experiments like taking out the air filter, but even using a Torque gauge, I cannot trust these results. Years ago, in a Porsche club I was part of, they did an experiment on me. They had me run a couple of laps to get my best times. Then they took the car, had it for a couple of hours, and told me they did some quick performance mods and asked me to do another couple of timed laps. I trusted these guys, so I thought this was great. When I got the car back, my lap times were significantly reduced and I was in car heaven. Then they told me they did nothing to the car and that since I believed the car was more powerful, I just drove more aggressively. From that time on, I only believe dyno results with controlled, non-human parameters. It costs money to make really good performance upgrades -- things like modified turbos, boring and stroking, performance cams, final drive ratios, etc. I just don't trust the cheap upgrades like chips and filters. Ultimately, we are all looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow -- i.e., something for nothing. But in my 72 years, I've never found that to be something to rely on.
 

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2019 Kia Sportage. SX with AWD. 2.0L Direct Injected Turbocharged & Intercooled Gas.
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Oh your poor wife :p haha... ah just kiddin man. I get what you're saying. I'm only out for research right now. And certainly not assuming I would only run a chip without other mods. But what I don't like is when people assume, oh the manufacturer did it right and changing anything on the factory specs/settings will be detrimental and worse for your car, etc... We all know that's not true.
Saakey,
Were not the enemy. I believe many who have posted here have tried what your thinking of doing yourself.

If you go the chip route with new plugs and catch can (recommended) your looking at about a $ Grand. That gets you 15 HP and mabey on a good day 20 HP.

You can get a 100+ horsepower Nitrous Kit for $ 600.
So $ per HP the Nitrous set up is the way to go. I've been playing around with various Nitrous setups since 1975, and have taken out my share of components using The Juice.

If you want some free HP add a killswitch to your alternator, that's good for 15 HP at WOT. Lots cheaper than the chip route.

And, I never said the engine was the first fuse in the system. The drivetrain is. The chip won't damage the drive train but the Nitrous will! ;)

The good engineers at Kia have just about milked this particular set up for all its worth.
That's all were saying.......
Have fun and learn well at whatever angle you decide to take.....
 

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You'll find a lot of people use their "experience" by trying experiments like taking out the air filter, but even using a Torque gauge, I cannot trust these results.
well, please point out to me how I could intentionally bias a test that requires nothing more of me than to clear a computer function and then stomp on the go peddle and steer? AWD means no traction management required. The car does everything. I can't see how the human factor can be eliminated/diminished any more, as opposed to your lapping example which is rife with human involvement.

you're just being stubborn rvoll, but after 72 years you're entitled I guess
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Saakey,
Were not the enemy. I believe many who have posted here have tried what your thinking of doing yourself.

If you go the chip route with new plugs and catch can (recommended) your looking at about a $ Grand. That gets you 15 HP and mabey on a good day 20 HP.

You can get a 100+ horsepower Nitrous Kit for $ 600.
So $ per HP the Nitrous set up is the way to go. I've been playing around with various Nitrous setups since 1975, and have taken out my share of components using The Juice.

If you want some free HP add a killswitch to your alternator, that's good for 15 HP at WOT. Lots cheaper than the chip route.

And, I never said the engine was the first fuse in the system. The drivetrain is. The chip won't damage the drive train but the Nitrous will! ;)

The good engineers at Kia have just about milked this particular set up for all its worth.
That's all were saying.......
Have fun and learn well at whatever angle you decide to take.....
Yeah yeah, never said you guys were the enemy... but people do tend to just dismiss me because I want to 'waste my money'. People shouldn't just assume I don't know anything and speak to me as if I'm someone without experience. And I don't care if you're 72 or 16... if you have actually knowledge and experience, and not just 2 cents worth of an opinion, then you're worth a listen.
I would never consider Nitrous.. it's too fake a HP for me. If you can't run it all the time, it's not real horsepower.
I did speak to these guys here - RaceChip USA - Performance chip tuning made in Germany - and they seem like they know what they are doing.. they already have chips for the Stinger, Optima, Forte and the Soul... they said they are working on one for the Sportage. So we'll see.
 

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well, please point out to me how I could intentionally bias a test that requires nothing more of me than to clear a computer function and then stomp on the go peddle and steer? AWD means no traction management required. The car does everything. I can't see how the human factor can be eliminated/diminished any more, as opposed to your lapping example which is rife with human involvement.

you're just being stubborn rvoll, but after 72 years you're entitled I guess
If you really want to test, do a double blind test with someone else driving. Do 10 runs -- 5 with the filter and 5 without. Don't tell the driver which of the runs has the filter and which does not. That will take most of the human factor out of the equation. Did you have the same amount of gas in the tank? Was the first run with the filter and the second one without? Were the tires at exactly the same temperature? Was the car at the same temp? Did the HVAC system cycle? Did the alternator run the same amount of time? Did you do it multiple times? There is more of a human factor than you could possibly believe. When I did dyno testing, we did several runs as even dyno testing can be variable. Yeah, I'm a real skeptic and my experience over the years has only made me more skeptical. The problem with measuring car performance, even without humans involved, is that there are a myriad of variables you don't control. One of the chip vendors I knew years ago only posted the best results of several runs and advertised "up to 20hp increase". Whenever I've tested results in a double blind manner with several runs, I have NEVER seen advertised results. Good luck....
 

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And I don't care if you're 72 or 16... if you have actually knowledge and experience, and not just 2 cents worth of an opinion, then you're worth a listen.
Many of us do have experience with chipping and that's not just opinion. I still wouldn't believe results advertised by a chip vendor as they are quite biased to put money in their back pocket. That's also from knowledge and experience....
 

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thx rvoll, but it never was my intention to perform a metrology lab accuracy level test. variations in many factors (tire temp, fuel level and several others) provided they are not widely variable run to run, can be ignored if you are cognizant of them

I even developed a check list (ex pilot, old habits die hard) to perform before every run (hvac off, all windows up, lighting switch OFF, sport mode, tranny in D etc etc, it was about 10-15 steps long as I recall) to try and ensure the car was configured exactly the same way for every run.

With the resources I had available it was about as tight as it could be, tho I admit, certainly not perfect. But even with this level of test accuracy, trends can become apparent that exceed acceptable error, and the trend indicated that the car ran a little faster without the filter installed.

YMMV. Why don't you try it yourself? Good luck.
 

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Has anyone tried or heard anything about the Pedal Commander??
 

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Has anyone tried or heard anything about the Pedal Commander??
What's your thoughts on that?

To me it looks like a device that merely controls manipulates the throttle body response to the foot movement and makes no claim to increase power.

Was that meant for this topic?
 

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thx rvoll, but it never was my intention to perform a metrology lab accuracy level test. variations in many factors (tire temp, fuel level and several others) provided they are not widely variable run to run, can be ignored if you are cognizant of them

I even developed a check list (ex pilot, old habits die hard) to perform before every run (hvac off, all windows up, lighting switch OFF, sport mode, tranny in D etc etc, it was about 10-15 steps long as I recall) to try and ensure the car was configured exactly the same way for every run.

With the resources I had available it was about as tight as it could be, tho I admit, certainly not perfect. But even with this level of test accuracy, trends can become apparent that exceed acceptable error, and the trend indicated that the car ran a little faster without the filter installed.

YMMV. Why don't you try it yourself? Good luck.
The only way I see this possible is the reading of the MAF sensor which would change the reading of the ECU and make your fuel mixture richer and unbalanced. The ECU is programmed with the filter in place. You could then get the same result by leaving the filter in and reprogramming the ECU to provide a richer mixture. Over time, that would increase carbon deposits on the cylinders and significantly reduce mpg. Making the assumption that restricted airflow provided increased power is problematic and over simplified. Modern engines are not the same as many of us worked on in the past. It is much more complex and there are other consequences you may not consider. Again, manufacturers would not leave any performance benefit of reasonable cost on the table because of the competitive car business. In the end, you get what you pay for.....
 

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Hey Saakey and Ron! it was meant for this thread... I can definitely start a new one. I know this device will not increase horsepower, but I believe it could help in accessing its power in a more personalized way.

For example, I drive in Sport mode most of the time because it has the least throttle lag. I get all my torque that way as well. I come from riding sportbikes on the track and now have a little Harley which has a stage 2 done on it. I'm used to having power when I want it so that's really my only reason for wanting this.

I personally think the stock tune and drive modes stink :poop: The power curve can be awkward around town. Sometimes waiting too long to deliver or over acceleration. When I find people genuinely curious about this I get excited, no offence rvoll, all the points you're making are valid, but there are some people less concerned with the preservation of their vehicle, and the curiosity to find its limits, or even a little extra performance. I like to enjoy my moments as much as possible, after all, we only have one life right;)?
 

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I'm used to having power when I want it so that's really my only reason for wanting this.
That's really only changing the response to the available power, whereas this thread is about increasing power, so should be discussed in a different thread.
 

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Hey Saakey and Ron! it was meant for this thread... I can definitely start a new one. I know this device will not increase horsepower, but I believe it could help in accessing its power in a more personalized way.

For example, I drive in Sport mode most of the time because it has the least throttle lag. I get all my torque that way as well. I come from riding sportbikes on the track and now have a little Harley which has a stage 2 done on it. I'm used to having power when I want it so that's really my only reason for wanting this.

I personally think the stock tune and drive modes stink :poop: The power curve can be awkward around town. Sometimes waiting too long to deliver or over acceleration. When I find people genuinely curious about this I get excited, no offence rvoll, all the points you're making are valid, but there are some people less concerned with the preservation of their vehicle, and the curiosity to find its limits, or even a little extra performance. I like to enjoy my moments as much as possible, after all, we only have one life right;)?
We actually agree on Sport mode, and yes, the stock tune and mode settings are not very aggressive. But here's the rub -- the Sportage is a lower level, compact SUV -- not a sports or race car. The settings and tune are designed to maximize the trade-offs between safety, performance, and mileage. And there is a design requirement to use regular gas. Also, Kia must do what it can to honor the long warranty we all have. In addition, drive train and brake parts are designed for this level of performance. As you probably know, if you increase hp, you must make sure the drive train/mounts can handle the extra load and the brakes are big enough to stop the car. The other question is warranty. If you don't care about the warranty, that's fine, but if you do something to modify the engine and create a problem, you might lose it if something happens. Look at the transmission and brakes of the Stinger if you want to see the difference. If you have the money to be not concerned about the preservation of the vehicle and still want a performance compact SUV, buy a Macan. Again, it's your money and you are free to do any mods. I just don't see this car as a good test bed to mod -- and neither do the performance part suppliers.

By the way, for what it is, I really like this Sportage. It would be great if they designed it to carry about 350hp -- but they didn't.....
 

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What is the 2017-20 2.0 turbo boost currently? 11-15 were 17.4 but can’t seem to find any info on the 4th gen.
 

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I am a tuner, not a guy that has had cars tuned, but a guy that has on many occasions tuned cars, on real dynos. I did it for money for a while, but figured my day job paid more so I just do it for myself and friends. I have tuned about 40-50 cars. Done probably 2000-3000 different tune revisions. Are there people that know more then me, of course, but most know less as far as tuning goes.

Taking out any restriction on the intake will allow the motor to flow more air, which (if tuned correctly) will result in more hp. How much? Hard to say.

ANY air filter results in a restriction, you can test this on a dyno with a vacuum gauge post air filter but pre-turbo.

The last car I did this test on had a slight vacuum at WOT with the factory airbox/filter, and changing it resulted in maybe 3-5 whp. Nothing huge, but 3-5 is better then 0.5% on most cars.

When that same car had a bigger turbo (with about 30-35% more flow potential then the OEM one) then the factory airbox filter assembly resulted in about 35-40 whp loss over the higher flow unit.

Lesson, factory intake was pretty good. Aftermarket one traded some noise for a few WHP bump.

The OEM exhaust also tends to be half decent nowadays. Sure there might be 5-10whp gain (again, this might require tuning to realize the potential) but the real gain is the cat(s). So if you want to be illegal and pollute, take the cats out and possibly gain a decetn amount of whp (again with proper tuning).

OEMs (in this case KIA) usually leave some room for error on the table. These cars may not be in the ideal mechanical condition when they are 5,6,7+ years old, so they don't go too close to the edge. Specificially with things like turbo shaft speed. (will you always have top shelf synthetic oil in there?) Also, will you keep the valves clean from deposits that are common to GDI cars? All things being equal, on a car that makes 240ish hp, there is usually about 10+ whp on the table from a tune alone, maybe another 15 or so if you tune it for 91 or 93 octane gas. There is also usually a big mid-rpm bump in torque that could be exploited if one wanted to. But then that opens up the possibility of transmission or other driveline problems.

FWIW the Sportage SX already has shown signs of intercooler heatsoaking in hot temps, even though the car is factory stock. Then the ECU pulls timing and it drops a ton of power to protect itself. So in temps that aren't too hot, is it possible to get more whp? Sure. Will it then heatsoak even faster in hot temps? Yup.

If you tune for 91/93 gas alone, don't increase boost levels, just a little bit extra timing and AFR tweaking, then I would argue the motor/intercooler is likely fine.

As soon as you raise boost, then the intercooler is likely the limiting factor.

I could go on, but I got better things to do. I own an SX, and I have decided not to tune it, not enough proven examples to worth the risk IMO. Just spend the money and buy a faster cross-over if that is what you want IMO.
 

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The only way I see this possible is the reading of the MAF sensor which would change the reading of the ECU and make your fuel mixture richer and unbalanced. The ECU is programmed with the filter in place. You could then get the same result by leaving the filter in and reprogramming the ECU to provide a richer mixture. Over time, that would increase carbon deposits on the cylinders and significantly reduce mpg. Making the assumption that restricted airflow provided increased power is problematic and over simplified.
You speak with half knowledge my friend.

Many half truths in your statements. Be careful.
 
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