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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all,

I've lurked for awhile and finally decided to post.

I purchased a new to me 2000 Sportage EX 4x4 about 3 months ago and have noticed a starting issue I'm hoping you guys will be able to help with.

When I first bought it, the engine seemed to turn over but not start ramdomly about what seemed like every once in 10 - 15 starts or so. I bought it with 140,000 miles on the clock and the dealer did all the 140,000 mile maintenance along with a timing belt change. I searched the net and found a few other Sportage owners on various forums with similiar starting issues but no clear cause or fix.

Now that I've had it for 3k miles, I beleive I've noticed a pattern. It seems that if the engine is at ambient air temp or fully warmed up, she usually starts no problem. But if I make a short trip that dosen't warm the engine up enough, I get the truning over but no start. It then takes 2 or 3 starting attempts with letting it sit a minute or so between attempts to finally get it to start.

The other thing I've noticed is while it is doing the turn over but no start, the engine turns over faster than the times it does start. It's not big speed difference but it is noticeable.

With my current observations I'm thinking the air temp sensor is bad or going bad, but I'm just guessing. What do you guys think? Any ideas on what I can try to narrow down the problem?
 

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Caribou, Otter, Buffalo
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Provided all cylinders are at spec on a compression test

time to connect a LIVE DATA SCANNER.

COLD engine, (KOEO)
AIT (air temp)and ECT(coolant temp) must be with in 2% of ambient temperature
TPS, 0% at stop and rise smooth and steady as throttle is advanced
MAF, 0% with no air flow
Battery, 12.6vdc, fully charged.

Start engine.
ECT, must start to rise and attain and hold 180* at idle and 2000rpm
CL (ECU) must maintain at idle and 2000rpm
MAF, small reading at idle and rise steadily as throttle advances.
O2, (B1S1, precat), must start actively switching with no lean/rich bias...
LTFT, (long term fuel trim), close to 0%, +/-2 is allowable, if more, time to investigate fuel delivery/illegal air
Vacuum, at unregulated manifold port, 19-21”hg..with a dead steady needle, investigate jitter or bounce.
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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184 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Provided all cylinders are at spec on a compression test

time to connect a LIVE DATA SCANNER.

COLD engine, (KOEO)
AIT (air temp)and ECT(coolant temp) must be with in 2% of ambient temperature
TPS, 0% at stop and rise smooth and steady as throttle is advanced
MAF, 0% with no air flow
Battery, 12.6vdc, fully charged.

Start engine.
ECT, must start to rise and attain and hold 180* at idle and 2000rpm
CL (ECU) must maintain at idle and 2000rpm
MAF, small reading at idle and rise steadily as throttle advances.
O2, (B1S1, precat), must start actively switching with no lean/rich bias...
LTFT, (long term fuel trim), close to 0%, +/-2 is allowable, if more, time to investigate fuel delivery/illegal air
Vacuum, at unregulated manifold port, 19-21”hg..with a dead steady needle, investigate jitter or bounce.
Thanks for the info aquanaut20, don't have a compression tester but do have a code reader that shows live data. I'll see what readings I get and post the results.
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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184 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Won't be able to check the readings til I have time on the weekend. However, I did find another post about the immobilizer that could be the culprit. The symptoms sound like mine, the engine spins but does not start.

sportage-immobiliser-problems-easy-fix
 

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Premium Member
2020 Hyundai Palisades
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2,967 Posts
i would also think that a intermittent crank or cam sensor would cause the same problem and possible fuel system problems pump etc but check and see if any codes pop up.
 

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2008 SpectraSX, 2014 Optima LX,2006 Jeep Liberty, Linux Mint Mate
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6,961 Posts
Wolf...
If it is a car sold in the USA, I doubt if it has an immobilizer. If it's Canadian it would.
Dave
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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184 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Wolf...
If it is a car sold in the USA, I doubt if it has an immobilizer. If it's Canadian it would.
Dave
The VIN starts with K rather than a 1 for US or 2 for Canada. According to a VIN decoder, K means it was manufactured in Korea. Does that mean what I think it does and it's a non-US model? Or is there another way to tell?
 

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2008 SpectraSX, 2014 Optima LX,2006 Jeep Liberty, Linux Mint Mate
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It's a US car and no immobilizer to worry about.
My 06 Spectra's VIN starts with a "K".
I would go with Jetech's last post.
Go to AutoZone and have them "pull" the codes BUT do not have them reset them as of now. Post the codes (if present) here.
Dave
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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Discussion Starter #9
It's a US car and no immobilizer to worry about.
My 06 Spectra's VIN starts with a "K".
I would go with Jetech's last post.
Go to AutoZone and have them "pull" the codes BUT do not have them reset them as of now. Post the codes (if present) here.
Dave
Good. Didn't need the extra unknown of dealing with a non-US model.

DaveSpectra and jetech00001,
I have a code reader and read for any codes when I changed the oil last weekend. No stored codes and no pending codes. All sensors are OK status.

I'll be trying aquanaut20's suggestion this weekend and checking out the live data from my code reader now that I know what the normal operating paramaters should be.
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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184 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Provided all cylinders are at spec on a compression test

time to connect a LIVE DATA SCANNER.

COLD engine, (KOEO)
AIT (air temp)and ECT(coolant temp) must be with in 2% of ambient temperature
TPS, 0% at stop and rise smooth and steady as throttle is advanced
MAF, 0% with no air flow
Battery, 12.6vdc, fully charged.

Start engine.
ECT, must start to rise and attain and hold 180* at idle and 2000rpm
CL (ECU) must maintain at idle and 2000rpm
MAF, small reading at idle and rise steadily as throttle advances.
O2, (B1S1, precat), must start actively switching with no lean/rich bias...
LTFT, (long term fuel trim), close to 0%, +/-2 is allowable, if more, time to investigate fuel delivery/illegal air
Vacuum, at unregulated manifold port, 19-21”hg..with a dead steady needle, investigate jitter or bounce.
Here's the results:

COLD ENGINE

Outsite air temp - about 60*F

IAT sensor - 75*F - car was sitting in direct sunlight

ECT sensor - 61*F

TPS - 11% @ 0 throttle - 86.7% @ full throttle (rose & lowered smoothly)

MAF - 0.000

Battery - 12.49 VDC



RUNNING ENGINE

ECT - Rose to and held 185*F @ idle and 2000rpm

ECU CL - Maintained CL @ idle and 2000rpm (never went OL at all)

MAF - .4 @ idle to 1.10 @ 2000rpm (rose & lowered smoothly)

SHRTFT B1S1 (which I think is the B1S1 precat as was the only reading with a B1S1 designation) - Constantly varied between -2.3 to +2.3 @ idle, varied between -3.9 to +3.9 @ 2000rpm

LTFT - -2.3% (didn't change between cold and warm)


I take it sine the TPS reads 11% @ 0 throttle, I'll need to check that out. Any ideas on what to look for and adjust? Or is it something you just replace?

Also is -2.3% LTFT still aceptable? Or should I still check vacuum?
 

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Caribou, Otter, Buffalo
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The B1S1 you questioned would be the STFT (short term fuel trim), you have no data on the B1S1 O2 sensor, should actively switch 0.9v - 0.05v,

I suspect the O2 is OK as the STFT is switching -/+.. Philip
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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Discussion Starter #12
The B1S1 you questioned would be the STFT (short term fuel trim), you have no data on the B1S1 O2 sensor, should actively switch 0.9v - 0.05v,

I suspect the O2 is OK as the STFT is switching -/+.. Philip
Ah ok. Yes both 02 sensor voltages were actively switching.
 

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Caribou, Otter, Buffalo
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Ah ok. Yes both 02 sensor voltages were actively switching.
Now that the basics are out of the way, lets talk specifics..

What engine do you have?? 4iL or V6??

If it is a 4(inline), the downstream O2 (B1S2) should fluctuate slightly +/- 0.45v. If it is switching like the B1S1 then CAT is dead..... Philip
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Now that the basics are out of the way, lets talk specifics..

What engine do you have?? 4iL or V6??

If it is a 4(inline), the downstream O2 (B1S2) should fluctuate slightly +/- 0.45v. If it is switching like the B1S1 then CAT is dead..... Philip
I've got the 2.0L 4 cylinder. I'll have to doublecheck B1S2 O2 readings.
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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Discussion Starter #15
Here's the O2 sensor readings:

B1S1 - .08 - .76
B1S2 - .75 - .79
 

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Caribou, Otter, Buffalo
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Here's the O2 sensor readings:

B1S1 - .08 - .76
B1S2 - .75 - .79
FWIW, (B1S2) indicates the CAT is not firing up properly, showing rich, this only affects emissions from the tail pipe, not engine tune...
If you use an IR thermometer the inlet should be 500-550*f and the outlet >650*f

The (B1S1) seems to be biased lean... or just a little lazy, depending on the switching speed.. Philip
 

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2000 Sportage EX 4x4 A/T, 2008 Harley Davidson Nightrain
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Discussion Starter #17
FWIW, (B1S2) indicates the CAT is not firing up properly, showing rich, this only affects emissions from the tail pipe, not engine tune...
If you use an IR thermometer the inlet should be 500-550*f and the outlet >650*f

The (B1S1) seems to be biased lean... or just a little lazy, depending on the switching speed.. Philip
Both looked to be switching pretty actively. I'd say readings would change almost 2 times per second.
 

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2008 SpectraSX, 2014 Optima LX,2006 Jeep Liberty, Linux Mint Mate
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aquanaut20...
For my information....
What is the "general" range for the second Cat O2 sensor feedback?
Say for....
Primary Cat (new) and functioning properly___________
Primary Cat with some higher mileage but still working_______________
Primary Cat fouled _______________
Primary Cat Bricked/Blocked____________

I see the output from his is "B1S2 - .75 - .79" and fluctuating slightly but you are saying "the B1S2 should have a fairly steady reading mid-range (.45-.55v)".
Is .75~.79 out of range? Is the reading a bad O2 sensor or an out of range output because of a dying primary Cat?

I think that's what he was trying to ask as the Cat "is" fluctuating only slightly as you said it would... BUT.... the numbers are higher (.45 compared to .75).

I'm in a "learning mode"...
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I dont think you understand. If the CAT is working the B1S2 should have a fairly steady reading mid-range (.45-.55v)... Philip
Ah OK, gues it's time to start looking at cat back systems. :D

I got the turn over but no start 3 times in a row yesterday. When it was cold (first start of the day), when fully warmed up (took a 1 hr trip), and after a short trip to the store later that day. So I guess my original obervations about when it happs are out the window.

I don't know if it will help in troubleshooting or not, but one thing I forgot to mention is after 2 failed attemps to start the car normally, I've been using the fail to start proceedure in the owners manual which has worked 95% of the time. (In warm weather push gas pedal half-way down, turn on car, start car. In cold weather, push gas pedal all the way down, turn on car, start car.)
 
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