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2021 Sportage S 2.4 FWD
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
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Still have to cut the OE oil filter open for inspection, as I have done with all spin-ons over the last 30+ years.
Replaced the drainplug with a Votex neo magnetic drainplug. Uses the same 17mm socket.

Give Kia credit for a couple small panels to get to the drainplug and the oil filter. I don't care for those pushpins but it sure beats having to remove under panels. This time I didn't break any pins but I will order some spares and leave them in the tool box.

The oil had a good dark amber coloring and plenty of the break-in metallic dust like look to it. Don't think the camera does the metal swirls any justice.

Dumped the factory fill 5w20 conventional for a good ol' synthetic 5w30.
 

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Still have to cut the OE oil filter open for inspection, as I have done with all spin-ons over the last 30+ years.
Replaced the drainplug with a Votex neo magnetic drainplug. Uses the same 17mm socket.

Give Kia credit for a couple small panels to get to the drainplug and the oil filter. I don't care for those pushpins but it sure beats having to remove under panels. This time I didn't break any pins but I will order some spares and leave them in the tool box.

The oil had a good dark amber coloring and plenty of the break-in metallic dust like look to it. Don't think the camera does the metal swirls any justice.

Dumped the factory fill 5w20 conventional for a good ol' synthetic 5w30.
Break-in metallic dust????? Really? I waited 7500 miles for my first oil change on my 2.4 and after oil analysis, there was practically no metallic pieces. There are additives that may give the appearance of particles, but they aren't. Only testing can confirm this. This is an old concept that doesn't apply to modern engines and oils. Also, unless you live in a very hot area (I'm in Vegas), there is no reason to go to 30 weight oil. Even in Vegas, I stay with 20 weight. That said, it shouldn't cause a lot of harm. But I like to be on the safe side. Theoretically, thicker oils can cause more friction and more wear. I'll stay with the thinnest oil I can until I start getting evidence of blow-by by loss of oil, etc. My car is a 2017 and I still use 20 weight oil with no measurable oil loss. I know I can't change people's minds using science and fact, but the color of the oil is no indication of the function of the oil. Modern oils get dark with heat --- period. If you are really concerned with the health of your car, rely on testing and science...
 

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2021 Sportage S 2.4 FWD
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Assembly additives are simply moly based greased or thick oil used when assembling the engine. They are all but useless after the engine is started and run.

And yes, a sample will be mailed tomorrow for UOA. Like any of my new engines over the years, I expect tons of metal and a healthy slug of moly. Nothing new. The only thing I worry about is the percentage of fuel in the engine and that will determine my oil change interval. I don't use color to determine an interval.

This is not an old fashioned concept and the term modern has means nothing to me other than rapid parts production with no machinist input and hope/pray tolerance levels for all spec's. Sorry, I work in 'modern' manufacturing and can do better without the 'modern' part. Modern today means as cheap and quickly as possible. If modern was so good, there wouldn't be multiple theta-ii class action lawsuits and settlements, extended warranty, engine replacements, and the final "lifetime engine warranty" that is pending settlement.

I can use 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30, per the owners manual. And, with the theta-2 famous fuel diluting oil issue, that is more than enough reason to go thicker. The 2.0T also allows 5w40, 15w40, and even 20w50. Quote the service manual and let me know what the bearing clearance differences are when comparing the 2.4 to the 2.0T.

I don't wait for issues to make adjustments. That is being foolish. Waiting for the engine to be trashed and then adjusting oil grade or intervals vs addressing it from the get go.

And yes, I work in engine/transmission parts manufacturing. I also built enough of both to know better than silly marketing from brainwashed sheeple.

Thicker oils do not cause more friction or wear. That is a bogus lie. Film thickness protects engines and is the primary protection. Fools confusing pumping losses from thicker oil molecules with "friction" like its dirt or grinding swarf. Ignorance is bliss. The terminology is WRONG. I can afford the 1/10mpg loss.

You do whatever you want with your vehicle. I do whatever I want with mine.

I am hoping that the gen2 Theta-II doesn't have the issues that the earlier years had.... I already know that it might have it since gen2 have failed too.

Having had a theta-2 failure and seeing the consumer silliness and greenie marketing, nothing won't convince me not to use a synthetic, not to change it following the severe service interval, and obviously nothing won't convince me not to use a super thick high friction puppy/kitten/bunny killing megafriction oil.

I will probably go with the higher HTHS 10w30 synthetic next time.

Do you have some superb 7500 20 grade UOA data that you can share with us? Your warm climate should reduce fuel dilution since warmup times are less and one would think that it would cook off the fuel faster.
 

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Tell you what, Dead, that is some nasty-looking oil for 600 miles. My first change on the turbo at 3500 looked a lot better than that. I wish you luck with your regimen but if I had to guess, I'd say your engine might be one of the bad ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Engine sounds pretty good. Its all but silent other than the GDI pump/injectors doing their tap dance.
The engine is also smooth as silk at idle. I can usually spot a bad engine by its shake at idle. Its obvious if you're around enough of them. And yes, there were a few brand new Sportages/Tucsons with a good shake at idle that we avoided. The theta2 can shake itself to death and the Hyundai/Kia NVH is so good, that a driver won't even notice it until it permanently stalls. This is why so many never knew what happened when they were stranded.

Our driving pattern is considered severe service. So, the oil/filter will be changed every 3750 miles, logged/receipted and uploaded onto carfax.

The nasty looking oil is simply a filter that is pathetic. Not sure if I'll install a bypass filter or remotely mounted oversized filter, as I have done with other vehicles over the years. But, starting with the next oil change, I will be using synthetic media filters. I have a few Napa Platinum leftovers from the Sonata/SantaFe. Being that its a brand new car, its screaming for a Frantz, and there is plenty of room for one under the hood.

The filter I used was the non-MH filter that is sold as a Mobis Hyundai/Kia filter with the same PN as the dealer sourced MH filter. Everyone swears that its legit. I see it as a knock-off. Will run it 3k miles and sample for particle counts to see how it compares to the MH dealer filter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Besides the magnetic drainplug, I added another theta-ii engine saving mod. 😁

Tossed the left one in the trash and installed the right one.

Dealers around here like to do complementary service when bringing car in for recalls or warranty work. Hoping this prevents the 5w20 freebie service that I don't want.



118637
 

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Besides the magnetic drainplug, I added another theta-ii engine saving mod. 😁

Tossed the left one in the trash and installed the right one.

Dealers around here like to do complementary service when bringing car in for recalls or warranty work. Hoping this prevents the 5w20 freebie service that I don't want.
Highly doubt a dealership will be fooled by a oil filler cap - they know what grade of oil goes in that model and that's all they'll put in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Dealership quicklube clowns aren't rocket scientists. They'll will read the cap and use that over anything. And, anyone at the dealership already knows how big of a turd the theta-ii is... Even the recall/tsb for the theta2 knocksensor software update/dipstick upgrade 'microphone test' required conventional 5w30 to be used as the top off on the 2.4, prior to conducting the test, and synthetic 5w30 on the new engine if the old engine failed.

Magnetic drain plugs catch magnetic materials... like iron. Filter might not catch 'em on the 1st pass.
Transmissions, differentials, transfer cases, ... have used magnets as a filter forever. Your Hyundai/Kia 6-speed auto has a magnetic drain plug too. Anything it catches will free up space in the filter for 'other' wear metals and soot.

Magnet also a great way to compare oils without UOA data. I avoid store brand oils since I've seen a drastic increase in the magnet fuzz. I also have seen the same with thinner oils. If you DIY, having a magnetic drainplug with all your vehicles in your fleet is an eyeopener, especially if you vary brands/grade of oil based on rebates/clearances/sales

Since this 2.4 has a simple spin-on filter, I'll even toss in a Filtermag too(for the same reason). Its sitting on the shelf at the country house. Next time we get away from the city, I'll slap it on the filter too.

All of our cars have these littered throughtout the drivetrain:

And, I used the Votex on this '21 Kia
 

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And yes, a sample will be mailed tomorrow for UOA. Like any of my new engines over the years, I expect tons of metal and a healthy slug of moly. Nothing new. The only thing I worry about is the percentage of fuel in the engine and that will determine my oil change interval. I don't use color to determine an interval.

This is not an old fashioned concept and the term modern has means nothing to me other than rapid parts production with no machinist input and hope/pray tolerance levels for all spec's. Sorry, I work in 'modern' manufacturing and can do better without the 'modern' part. Modern today means as cheap and quickly as possible. If modern was so good, there wouldn't be multiple theta-ii class action lawsuits and settlements, extended warranty, engine replacements, and the final "lifetime engine warranty" that is pending settlement.

I can use 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30, per the owners manual. And, with the theta-2 famous fuel diluting oil issue, that is more than enough reason to go thicker. The 2.0T also allows 5w40, 15w40, and even 20w50. Quote the service manual and let me know what the bearing clearance differences are when comparing the 2.4 to the 2.0T.

I don't wait for issues to make adjustments. That is being foolish. Waiting for the engine to be trashed and then adjusting oil grade or intervals vs addressing it from the get go.

And yes, I work in engine/transmission parts manufacturing. I also built enough of both to know better than silly marketing from brainwashed sheeple.

Thicker oils do not cause more friction or wear. That is a bogus lie. Film thickness protects engines and is the primary protection. Fools confusing pumping losses from thicker oil molecules with "friction" like its dirt or grinding swarf. Ignorance is bliss. The terminology is WRONG. I can afford the 1/10mpg loss.

You do whatever you want with your vehicle. I do whatever I want with mine.

I am hoping that the gen2 Theta-II doesn't have the issues that the earlier years had.... I already know that it might have it since gen2 have failed too.

Having had a theta-2 failure and seeing the consumer silliness and greenie marketing, nothing won't convince me not to use a synthetic, not to change it following the severe service interval, and obviously nothing won't convince me not to use a super thick high friction puppy/kitten/bunny killing megafriction oil.

I will probably go with the higher HTHS 10w30 synthetic next time.

Do you have some superb 7500 20 grade UOA data that you can share with us? Your warm climate should reduce fuel dilution since warmup times are less and one would think that it would cook off the fuel faster.
There is always metal in engine oil samples because engines do wear. The question is how high they are. I had my first test done at my first oil change at 7500 miles by WIX. The only item out of spec was Silicon at 77. They said that was from a source other than dirt and not creating wear. Water content was acceptable. TBN was was near limit. Virtually no contaminants and viscosity was well within limits. Because of the TBN, I have gone with full synthetic subsequently. Additives were well within acceptable ranges. I've had one test more at 15k miles, and nothing was out of line and again, very low contaminants and TBN not even close. I'm sure you know that it's the levels that are important because you'll find low levels of contaminants is all used oil.

Regarding Theta-2 engine failures, it only affects a very small number of engines. From my back of napkin calculations, it looks like that number may be a max of 2% -- but that's still a very large number for Kia to handle. The vast majority of us have no problems. Generally, when you have a low percentage of problems, it's more likely manufacturing quality issues. There may be a design issue making the manufacturing tolerances too tight.

If you're in large scale manufacturing, you'll know that CCM and robotics has changed the quality of production significantly and enabled much tighter tolerances. In the past, only racing engines were built to these tolerances. The Koreans have come a long way in terms of manufacturing quality in recent years, and are still improving. But in my lay opinion, they still have a way to go. In spite of that, I bought this Sportage in 2017 and am not sorry I did so. I knew what I was getting and the risks I was taking. Fortunately, I'm one of the 98% who has zero issues with the car after almost 5 years. Being a driving enthusiast who used to track cars, I probably won't buy another Sportage because I like a better handling car or one with a more advanced technology.

Like I said before, I'm not going to change your opinion on these things because everyone thinks they are an expert. Since I'm not in the industry, I have to rely on testing and science and have always done so. That policy has given me great results over the last 60 years of owning and driving all makes and sizes of vehicles. It's also forced me to challenge the things I believed in the past that have either changed or were just wrong.

I am going to stick precisely to the manufacturer recommendations on service because they have done a lot more testing than me and they are the ones providing the warranty. As a sample of one, it's been great for me. I do test my oil the first few changes of every new car I buy. Since I'm old and decrepit, I don't drive as much as in the past, so when I get rid of my cars they rarely have more than 30k miles on them. Certainly, you won't damage your engine if you change your oil more, it's just unnecessary, wastes resources, and costs more money. I prefer to put that money to better use like providing meals to those out of work from Covid... We each have our priorities....
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am only looking for a good clean break-in and fuel dilution. If Hyundai/Kia tuning hasn't addressed the fuel buildup yet, then I'm stuck with severe service intervals. I've never used TBN to choose my oil change interval unless there was a TAN to work with, and even that I'd want a baseline oxidation/nitration to compare the new/old oil with. I don't follow the clueless sheeple on BITOG with their non-ISO certified lab TBN only oil change intervals or box marketing only oil filter change intervals.

Don't make up numbers. 2% is below average. I am understanding that their is around 20%+ failure rate which is 2x-3x most other automakers. Hyundai/Kia refuse to release the 'real' numbers. But, any tech at the dealer can tell you the 'order number' which is sequential. And, its >50k already. This was a Sonata only class action lawsuit that suddenly morphed into ALL VEHICLES that used the GDI theta2's. And, with 4 theta2's in the family, 2 have failed. I have a feeling that #3 is about to fail. So, two 2.0Ts and maybe a soon to be announced 2.4(the oldest original 2011 so far lasted the longest). It also had the best maintenance but worse driving patterns.

Yes, in manufacturing and also in failure lab analysis. Been in it too long so unlike youngster engineers, I don't see modern manufacturing as anything all almighty. And, I find that anyone using the term 'modern' doesn't understand manufacturing at all.

I too will stick with precisely what my Kia's manufacturer recommends, exclusively of the break-in oil change.
My Sportage's manufacturer precisely recommends 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30 oil. I prefer to use synthetic. So, in go the 5w30 and 10w30 synthoils.
My Sportage's manufacturer precisely recommends a 3750 mile or 6 month oil change interval, whichever comes 1st.

The automaker testing is so great that the theta-2 issue was leaked by a whistle blower after 1000's of consumers had issues, many dealing with warranty denial. Thank the lawyers since they taught Hyundai/Kia a lesson!

I don't think I am an expert. I know my background and do not fall for the idiocracy of some members here, like the earlier reply.

If you remember, Hyundai/Kia blamed 'manufacturing debris' and 'swarf' in the engine for the failures. Well, at 597 miles, I removed the swarf and debris, got a good break-in(oil consumption stopped)... Now, I am just relying on modern manufacturing and my service interval to make it last. Don't need it permanently stalling on the wrong blvd that is in the wrong part of every town, especially nowadays.

The experts at Hyundai/Kia:
Its only swarf on the 2011/12 and has been addressed. WRONG!
Its only for the 1st gen. WRONG!
What fuel dilution?
What intake valve/port deposits?
Stalling! Why not just call it what it really is.... engine seizing!

I am surprised that this Kia forum is about 5 years behind the knowledge and experience available at the Hyundai forum, especially us original Theta2 beta testers.
 

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99 Kia Elan 1.8L
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I don't think I am an expert. I know my background and do not fall for the idiocracy of some members here, like the earlier reply.
Personal attacks, direct or indirect, will get you banned.
 

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I am only looking for a good clean break-in and fuel dilution. If Hyundai/Kia tuning hasn't addressed the fuel buildup yet, then I'm stuck with severe service intervals. I've never used TBN to choose my oil change interval unless there was a TAN to work with, and even that I'd want a baseline oxidation/nitration to compare the new/old oil with. I don't follow the clueless sheeple on BITOG with their non-ISO certified lab TBN only oil change intervals or box marketing only oil filter change intervals.

Don't make up numbers. 2% is below average. I am understanding that their is around 20%+ failure rate which is 2x-3x most other automakers. Hyundai/Kia refuse to release the 'real' numbers. But, any tech at the dealer can tell you the 'order number' which is sequential. And, its >50k already. This was a Sonata only class action lawsuit that suddenly morphed into ALL VEHICLES that used the GDI theta2's. And, with 4 theta2's in the family, 2 have failed. I have a feeling that #3 is about to fail. So, two 2.0Ts and maybe a soon to be announced 2.4(the oldest original 2011 so far lasted the longest). It also had the best maintenance but worse driving patterns.

Yes, in manufacturing and also in failure lab analysis. Been in it too long so unlike youngster engineers, I don't see modern manufacturing as anything all almighty. And, I find that anyone using the term 'modern' doesn't understand manufacturing at all.

I too will stick with precisely what my Kia's manufacturer recommends, exclusively of the break-in oil change.
My Sportage's manufacturer precisely recommends 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30 oil. I prefer to use synthetic. So, in go the 5w30 and 10w30 synthoils.
My Sportage's manufacturer precisely recommends a 3750 mile or 6 month oil change interval, whichever comes 1st.

The automaker testing is so great that the theta-2 issue was leaked by a whistle blower after 1000's of consumers had issues, many dealing with warranty denial. Thank the lawyers since they taught Hyundai/Kia a lesson!

I don't think I am an expert. I know my background and do not fall for the idiocracy of some members here, like the earlier reply.

If you remember, Hyundai/Kia blamed 'manufacturing debris' and 'swarf' in the engine for the failures. Well, at 597 miles, I removed the swarf and debris, got a good break-in(oil consumption stopped)... Now, I am just relying on modern manufacturing and my service interval to make it last. Don't need it permanently stalling on the wrong blvd that is in the wrong part of every town, especially nowadays.

The experts at Hyundai/Kia:
Its only swarf on the 2011/12 and has been addressed. WRONG!
Its only for the 1st gen. WRONG!
What fuel dilution?
What intake valve/port deposits?
Stalling! Why not just call it what it really is.... engine seizing!

I am surprised that this Kia forum is about 5 years behind the knowledge and experience available at the Hyundai forum, especially us original Theta2 beta testers.
We can certainly argue about what standards to follow, but they are all general measures requiring some interpretation. I'd rather have a reasonable oil analysis than none at all. There are certainly arguments about TBN's and consumer oil testing, but over the years, I've found them to be a reasonable guide.

Can you even remotely support your assertion that there is a 20% failure rate? Kia sells about 600K cars a year in the U.S. If you just take the last 5 years, using your numbers, that would mean there are 600K cars whose engines have failed. That number makes no sense at all. If the numbers were that high, Kia would not be in business today. How could this be the third highest brand in dependability if engine failures were that high?

The manufacturer recommended changes at 7500 miles -- not 3750 miles unless you are one of the few people who drive under severe circumstances ALL of the time.

Facts and science are your friend. It is misleading to draw quantitative conclusions from forums. People who join these forums are either car nuts, people who want to do some modification or buy accessories, or people with problems that want answers. The vast majority of owners never read a forum and almost never have any major problems.
 

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I am surprised that this Kia forum is about 5 years behind the knowledge and experience available at the Hyundai forum, especially us original Theta2 beta testers.
I'm surprised you don't have a high paying consulting job with Hyundai or Kia. :unsure:
 

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2021 Sportage S 2.4 FWD
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Automakers don't want the truth. They're are happy with class action lawsuits instead.

How many were sold with the GDI theta-ii? I am sure some of the 600k Kias were sold without the 2.0T or 2.4GDI. This is a theta-2 issue and not EVERY SINGLE vehicle sold by Kia/Hyundai. BTW, plenty of issues with some of their other engines too. https://www.kiamedia.com/us/en/medi...-kia-motors-america-resolve-engine-litigation

Contact Hyundai/Kia for the actually numbers. I counteracted the make believe 2% with a make believe 20% and all your panties got in a bunch. Like I said, they refuse to release the real numbers. My witnessed failure rate is 50%. Some have seen none. I think the billions put aside and millions paid in fines speaks for itself. And, they are still failing. Misleading is fine for some but not others. Biased much here?

Since the engine is being phased out, maybe in 10 years we'll know the real issue and data. Bet they keep it a secret. A few techs at the dealership will spill the sequential order number for replaced engines. Last data I've seen a year ago was pathetical high.
Hyundai used to submit reports on the recall.... including number of engines failed/replaced, number of inspections, and number with updated software to detect failure. Once NHTSA had enough covered, reports stopped. Ride the warranty since we're all covered, original owners and those that bought it used(which started this train wreck).

Just a measly $210 million dollar fine
Nothing to see here folks....

So, once I run out of 5w30, will be moving my theta2 to 10w30 synthetic with severe 3750 mile interval. Like the last one I maintained for 10 years, I expect this one to be trouble free. If I ever get to the point where I don't want to or can't maintain it, then it'll be replaced. Its not a brand I'd buy used ever again. Doesn't take much for a consumer to age an engine excessively with neglect or abuse. When bought new, I think it can be kept running new with some uncommon sense lubrication tactics.
 
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