2007(57) Ceed 1.6CRDi LS - starting (immobiliser) problems - Kia Forum

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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-02-2015, 05:38 PM Thread Starter
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2007(57) Ceed 1.6CRDi LS - starting (immobiliser) problems

Car: 2007 Kia Ceed 1.6CRDi LS

Problem: Car periodically turns over but does not start, owing to immobiliser intervention; no orange immobiliser light, from searching around here, this suggests key not recognised or detected. Usually, turning the key back to off, waiting a few seconds, and retrying will show the immobiliser light and start the car. Recently, it failed to start for a period of about 5 minutes (though has, touch wood, been fine for several days since), but I'm aware that the general trend is that it is worsening and would like to try to resolve it.

Connected OBD up to the immobiliser, shown the following codes:
P1693 - Transponder - intermittent
P1696 - Immobilizer; incorrect key code - intermittent
Cleared them to monitor if they *both* re-occur if the problem resurfaces.

Done quite a bit of searching on this and other forums, and found several interesting leads:

1) The infamous "immobiliser pick up coil" problem/solution - sounds the most straightforward/cheap option. Plenty links on this forum and others. A few related questions:-
-Does anyone know if that's consistent with the codes pulled (above)? (There seems to be a P-code specifically for coil open circuit, hence my question)
-Does anyone know the correct part number for the vehicle (I've seen 95401-1H000 suggested)?
-I'm not entirely clear what is easy to replace. The coil is attached to the loom via a 6-pin connector; a bundle of 2 wires (yellow sheath) go the keyhole illumination LED, a bundle of 2 (yellow sheath) to what I'm guessing is the coil itself, and a bundle of 2 (blue sheath) to a plastic fitment on the ignition barrel itself. This looks like it might be a "key present" microswitch, but I'm not clear how to remove it from the barrel, nor whether it is even possible to do so without breaking it! Any clues?
(see attached picture)

2) The "Samtra relay" solution (helpfully, drew the same immobiliser DTCs as mine), from:
Cee'd not starting - Kia Owners Club Forums (apologies for off-forum link)
-Does anyone know what the "samtra relay" might be?
-Might it be part 95420-1H700? This seems to come up when you search "ceed immobiliser" on ebay. Doing some more searching indicates its the part of the system that translates the RF signal to the key code for the ECU. Sounds logical. However, does anyone know if the ceed has it, and if so, where is it? (On other Kias, it is supposed to be somewhere on the steering column. I've looked at it; it's nowhere obviously visible near the pickup coil)

3) Several more serious options; potentially ECU, immobiliser or various connector problems.
-Does anyone know the location of the problem connectors? (photos would help )

In summary, a couple of final questions:
-is it possible to narrow down the root cause, without simply replacing the various bits, cheapest first? Comments on any of the above questions are welcomed.
-are there any good web-based sources of kia technical info (e.g. workshop manuals, parts catalogues)? All the links to ceedinfo, etc, seem to be dead. I guess the 7-year warranty has really curtailed DIY/non-dealer service/maintenance.

Many thanks in advance, best wishes,
-David

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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-05-2015, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
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Well, it turns out I can answer some of my own questions after some further research and a bit of work on the vehicle. I just thought I'd post some more here in case it's of any use to anyone else. All of the following relates to point 1 in my previous post - the immobiliser coil.

Firstly, 95401-1H000 is the correct part number if your key barrel is lit with an LED. You get the coil with a length of cable terminated with pins to fit in the 6-pin connector (photo 1).
I paid GBP 23.17 + VAT.

This part goes on to answer several of my related questions. You don't absolutely need to remove the microswitch on the barrel, as you're simply (ha!) replacing the 2 pins in the plug (black and white wires) for the coil. However, I *did* choose to remove the microswitch as I needed better access to the plug.

The pins are unlike any multipin plug pins I've ever seen before. They don't have a retaining tang/tab on the metal pin; instead having a plastic retention latch/step in the plug. It turns out they're special KET Korean connectors. I found them quite awkward to remove, but once you know how to do it, they're quite straightforward.

Replacing the immobiliser transponder coil - 2007 Ceed 1.6crdi - Steps:
1) Remove steering column cowl (and lower dash panel if desired for better access). One screw under the cowl, and two behind the steering wheel (turn wheel to access screws). The lower dash panel is secured with 4 screws (2 behind the fuse cover) and clips.
2) Unclip and unplug washer switch stalk (RH stalk) for better access
3) Disconnect 6-pin connector to coil, LED and barrel switch
4) Remove coil securing screw - the coil/LED will now slip off the barrel
for easier plug access
5) Insert key and turn to ACC. Depress retaining pin underneath the barrel and gently remove the barrel and key. This will bring the "key-in" microswitch with it. photo 2
5a) I chose then to remove the microswitch from the barrel so I could lubricate the barrel mechanism with some graphite and the microswitch with some silicone grease, as it has stuck a few times (which disables the remote central locking as it still thinks there's a key in)
5b) Put a small screwdriver under the microswitch plunger and push it off the barrel (away from the keyhole). This is a bit awkward, but won't need much force, so be patient - it will slide off gently once the plunger is out of the way. photo 3. Now you've got the electronic gubbins separate and you can take them somewhere more comfortable to work with.
end of easy-access barrel bit
6) Dismantle the coil / LED assembly. The LED twists out, while a small screwdriver under the retaining clips will part the LED holder from the coil.
7) You now need to remove the pins for the black and white wires, and replace them with the ones for the new coil. This needs you to overcome two retaining devices:
7a) Remove the plastic pin retainer clip - a small screwdriver and gentle levering will do here. You're likely to mark the plug a little doing this, but I couldn't find a nicer way. I found levering at the right-arrow in photo 4 the most productive
7b) Remove the relevant pins. You'll need a very small (1-1.5mm) flat blade to do this. You're aiming to push the blade right along the top of the pin until you hit the plastic tang and then gently lever it up. While doing that, pull the wire, and if you've got it, it will easily slide out photo 5
7c) Replace with the new pins - I don't think black/white matters, but on mine, black goes adjacent to the yellow/red tracer wire. The new pins will simply push into place, with a click once they're located.
7d) I then liberally coated everything with silicone grease before replacing the plastic pin retainer. I found that it goes in at a slight angle (lower towards the cable exits). Push firmly to reseat it photo 6
8) Reassemble the coil / LED holder assembly. It clicks together; reverse of removal.
9a) If you dismantled the barrel microswitch, route the wires neatly before you pop the microswitch back on the barrel. It's a lot easier to refit than remove! Line it up with its slot, and push it towards the key end. photo 7
9b) If you removed the barrel from the ignition switch, insert the key, turn it to what would be the ACC position and gently offer it back up to the barrel. You'll need to line up the "key-in" bar with the slot in the ignition switch and then gently push it home. If it doesn't go very very easily, check the key is at the ACC position and try again. photo 8
10) Offer the coil/LED assembly back up to the barrel. Check the wiring routing (see step 9a!), and if you're happy, insert and tighten the retaining screw. photo 9. It's worth pointing out that I'd not got the LED/coil cover clipped back in properly in photo 9. I went back and did that
11) Reconnect the 6-pin plug.
12) Refit the cowl and the lower dash panel (if removed)

Hope that is of some use to someone!

Regarding my question 2 from the previous post (the SMARTRA unit P/N: 95420-1H700) - as that's next if the new coil doesn't sort it(!):
a) I've since found several references to where the SMARTRA unit (between coil and ECU) is located. This ranges from on a bracket between the accelerator/brake pedals to somewhere up in the heavens behind the instrument panel. I have looked and looked and reached and reached but cannot find it. I haven't had the entire dash off, but have had instrument panel, lower dash, and dash reinforcement out, and the nearest I've come is a relay-type thing (P/N: 39510-27010) up behind the instrument panel (from below) near where one source suggests it should be.
If anyone can help me out there, please do!
b) Just for anyone considering DIYing the SMARTRA unit, several sources suggest that despite this being simply an RF/digital translator, it does need the keys re-teaching so it can exchange an encryption key with the ECU - so you'll need GDS or HiCom. I guess that would rule out second-hand ones unless the seller can guarantee they've "neutralised" it.

Best wishes,
-David
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-05-2015, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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As you can only attach 5 files per post, here is the rest of my photo guide (photos 6-9)
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-05-2015, 05:01 PM
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Garage

Hello Davidl500 and welcome to the Kia forums.
Ceed 57 and diesel I take it you are from UK.
Hyundai and Kia use the same parts in a lot of their models. Souls, Ceed ,Venga. Ix20 etc. the part that fails is usually the coil but it can just be a loose or poor connection. If you only replace the coil there is no need to do anything else.
Slow down and look at your car and check from the beginning of car checks.
With battery and earth connections then all connections around ignition switch. Then if coil faulty then you can replace it simple. if you go slowly step by step.
I assume you have been scared by uk owners and you tube, but always consider basics and cheapest eliminations first.
Cars with programming problems often nicked or ringers or people interfered with ECU.
You have taken some good pictures and may be useful to others but has been covered on many forums.

Jeff
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-05-2015, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Jeff,

Thanks firstly for the welcome and for responding to my post. Probably worth my next chipping in with an apology on the profile country omission (indeed, also the UK) and for not explicitly stating I'd checked basics such as connector security.

Fingers crossed the new coil improves matters; time will tell. Resistance wise, there wasn't a whole lot of difference new vs old. I suspect the old coil was fine. Again, info availability (that I can locate, anyway!) is poor - it would've been useful to find even a spec sheet for the system.

I must admit, one not insignificant attraction to locating the smartra unit is to do a resistance test on the coil terminals from there, proving the relevant bit of loom.

Finally, apologies if the coil change walkthrough was a duplication of effort elsewhere; I guess so from your comments. Obviously not my intention. As mentioned, did a lot of searching, but didn't find an awful lot of info.

I'll keep the forum posted with the progress here, though so far, it's rather inconclusive.

Best wishes, thanks again,
David
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-06-2017, 04:53 AM
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Same problem with Kia rio 2005 1.4, please help

Hi David,
My Kia Rio has same problem, Car periodically turns over but does not start, immobilizer light turns Off and On. And when it is off, I can not start the car. Many mechanics don't know and cant figure out. Many gives different suggestions. I see that you have same problem, please let me know how I can fix this problem

//Arshad
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-06-2017, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Arshad,

It would be worth seeing if you have any of the immobiliser-related codes logged via an OBD scanner, in addition to what the light is telling you. (ELM327 Bluetooth OBD scanners are cheap if you don't already have one - paired with an Android app like Torque)

This said, the coil itself is / was cheap - and in my case, replacing the immobiliser coil did sort it out. (At least, it's not recurred since)
Whether it was replacing the immo pickup coil or simply disturbing and remaking the connections, I'm still not sure.

Best wishes,
-David
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 03:25 AM
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Hi my ceed 08 reg has been steadily getting worse to start due to the immobiliser problem. On Christmas Eve it would not start at all. Lucky it started on Christmas day. Has changing the coil sorted out the problem for you David as it has been quite a few years since your post? Also did you get the replacement coil from a dealership or eBay?
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David, Thank you for your very detailed 'fix' on the 'immobiliser pick up coil' problem. I believe (from days..and days.. of research) that I may have the same problem. I've tried looking online for a replacement immobiliser pick up coil but could not find any anywhere. May I ask where you bought yours from? Thank you! Would be helping me out tremendously..


Quote:
Originally Posted by davidl500 View Post
Well, it turns out I can answer some of my own questions after some further research and a bit of work on the vehicle. I just thought I'd post some more here in case it's of any use to anyone else. All of the following relates to point 1 in my previous post - the immobiliser coil.

Firstly, 95401-1H000 is the correct part number if your key barrel is lit with an LED. You get the coil with a length of cable terminated with pins to fit in the 6-pin connector (photo 1).
I paid GBP 23.17 + VAT.

This part goes on to answer several of my related questions. You don't absolutely need to remove the microswitch on the barrel, as you're simply (ha!) replacing the 2 pins in the plug (black and white wires) for the coil. However, I *did* choose to remove the microswitch as I needed better access to the plug.

The pins are unlike any multipin plug pins I've ever seen before. They don't have a retaining tang/tab on the metal pin; instead having a plastic retention latch/step in the plug. It turns out they're special KET Korean connectors. I found them quite awkward to remove, but once you know how to do it, they're quite straightforward.

Replacing the immobiliser transponder coil - 2007 Ceed 1.6crdi - Steps:
1) Remove steering column cowl (and lower dash panel if desired for better access). One screw under the cowl, and two behind the steering wheel (turn wheel to access screws). The lower dash panel is secured with 4 screws (2 behind the fuse cover) and clips.
2) Unclip and unplug washer switch stalk (RH stalk) for better access
3) Disconnect 6-pin connector to coil, LED and barrel switch
4) Remove coil securing screw - the coil/LED will now slip off the barrel
for easier plug access
5) Insert key and turn to ACC. Depress retaining pin underneath the barrel and gently remove the barrel and key. This will bring the "key-in" microswitch with it. photo 2
5a) I chose then to remove the microswitch from the barrel so I could lubricate the barrel mechanism with some graphite and the microswitch with some silicone grease, as it has stuck a few times (which disables the remote central locking as it still thinks there's a key in)
5b) Put a small screwdriver under the microswitch plunger and push it off the barrel (away from the keyhole). This is a bit awkward, but won't need much force, so be patient - it will slide off gently once the plunger is out of the way. photo 3. Now you've got the electronic gubbins separate and you can take them somewhere more comfortable to work with.
end of easy-access barrel bit
6) Dismantle the coil / LED assembly. The LED twists out, while a small screwdriver under the retaining clips will part the LED holder from the coil.
7) You now need to remove the pins for the black and white wires, and replace them with the ones for the new coil. This needs you to overcome two retaining devices:
7a) Remove the plastic pin retainer clip - a small screwdriver and gentle levering will do here. You're likely to mark the plug a little doing this, but I couldn't find a nicer way. I found levering at the right-arrow in photo 4 the most productive
7b) Remove the relevant pins. You'll need a very small (1-1.5mm) flat blade to do this. You're aiming to push the blade right along the top of the pin until you hit the plastic tang and then gently lever it up. While doing that, pull the wire, and if you've got it, it will easily slide out photo 5
7c) Replace with the new pins - I don't think black/white matters, but on mine, black goes adjacent to the yellow/red tracer wire. The new pins will simply push into place, with a click once they're located.
7d) I then liberally coated everything with silicone grease before replacing the plastic pin retainer. I found that it goes in at a slight angle (lower towards the cable exits). Push firmly to reseat it photo 6
8) Reassemble the coil / LED holder assembly. It clicks together; reverse of removal.
9a) If you dismantled the barrel microswitch, route the wires neatly before you pop the microswitch back on the barrel. It's a lot easier to refit than remove! Line it up with its slot, and push it towards the key end. photo 7
9b) If you removed the barrel from the ignition switch, insert the key, turn it to what would be the ACC position and gently offer it back up to the barrel. You'll need to line up the "key-in" bar with the slot in the ignition switch and then gently push it home. If it doesn't go very very easily, check the key is at the ACC position and try again. photo 8
10) Offer the coil/LED assembly back up to the barrel. Check the wiring routing (see step 9a!), and if you're happy, insert and tighten the retaining screw. photo 9. It's worth pointing out that I'd not got the LED/coil cover clipped back in properly in photo 9. I went back and did that
11) Reconnect the 6-pin plug.
12) Refit the cowl and the lower dash panel (if removed)

Hope that is of some use to someone!

Regarding my question 2 from the previous post (the SMARTRA unit P/N: 95420-1H700) - as that's next if the new coil doesn't sort it(!):
a) I've since found several references to where the SMARTRA unit (between coil and ECU) is located. This ranges from on a bracket between the accelerator/brake pedals to somewhere up in the heavens behind the instrument panel. I have looked and looked and reached and reached but cannot find it. I haven't had the entire dash off, but have had instrument panel, lower dash, and dash reinforcement out, and the nearest I've come is a relay-type thing (P/N: 39510-27010) up behind the instrument panel (from below) near where one source suggests it should be.
If anyone can help me out there, please do!
b) Just for anyone considering DIYing the SMARTRA unit, several sources suggest that despite this being simply an RF/digital translator, it does need the keys re-teaching so it can exchange an encryption key with the ECU - so you'll need GDS or HiCom. I guess that would rule out second-hand ones unless the seller can guarantee they've "neutralised" it.

Best wishes,
-David
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 07-24-2018, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry - a couple of follow ups since my post that I'd missed. Probably a bit late for Scouse49, but may still be useful for the most recent post.

The new immo/key coil did seem to solve it, and the car's still working well in that regard. As above, not sure whether the part fixed it or the act of disturbing and remaking connections. Either way, it did it!

I got mine from a local dealer - though any Kia dealer should supply with that part number. If you've none local, then there are some that'll do mail order. I've used one or two of these - I'll try to dig out details.

Good luck!
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