Kia Pro Ceed - turbo

[jajceko]

to AyJay: thats about right...and it happened two times ...it seems that that serie had some problems...

[AyJay]

so was it a missing oil seal or a manufacturing fault where the seal and shaft didnt fit correctly?
I would have thought that the turbo would have been tested before release.

Just out of curiosity, where have they taken the oil feed to the turbo from? And do they forsee any power loss with having the air being drawn from inside the engine compartment? It will get mighty hot in there, im suprised they didnt route the air from a high pressure region at the front of the car. I know you have an intercooler but if the inlet air is cooler in the first place it will just be even more efficient.

[jajceko]

to AyJay: we didnt dismantle the turbo, but i am presuming that it was some sort of manufactoring fault... i thought also that all turbos were being tested before release

as far as i know...oil feed comes from engine and circulates from turbo back to engine (i might be wrong )...
also...for turbo engine it isnt really important from where the air comes from ...of course it would be better if CAI was away from engine...but it shouldnt make much of a difference...

edit:
i have new info about where the oil comes (used a joker ask your service guys)
oil comes from where you have oil pressure sensor...they placed a T pipe there so i still have sensor...
and as far as CAI...they said that they messured and there isnt any significant power increase...because the exhaust temperature is 800C, and the air temperature is 70C..

[AyJay]

I did wonder if the oil would come from the oil pressure sensor, that does seem to be the most common take off point.

Im still not convinced that drawing air from the engine compartment is ideal. You have all the heat from the engine and the exhaust heating the engine bay whereas if you draw air from outside the engine bay it will have the potential to be significantly cooler. The whole point of the intercooler is to cool the air charge after it has been compresssed and heated so if you could drop the inlet air temp by 5c-10c- before it goes anywhere near the turbo you must be getting better efficiency surely?

Are they going to lag the exhaust to keep the engine bay temp lower? If the exhaust gas is at 800c then that heat is being radiated into the engine bay isnt it? and if the inlet air temp is 70c then where is that heat coming from? you wont see air temps much higher than 35c ambient air temp so something is heating that air to 70c and its not just the turbo compressor?

Im not saying your guys dont know what theyre doing but if i were spending money i would be asking these sort of questions! Youve got an intercooler youve admitted you dont really need cooling an inlet charge that could be cooler in the first place!
The trouble as well is that there are cost, asthetic and practical issues too. What would it cost to route a cold air feed to a high pressure area at the front of the car? Do you want a big hole somewhere to get the air in? And is it all worth it for maybe 1% or 2% extra horsepower?

All tuning is a compromise between cost and gains and its a series of ever diminishing returns. When i had my bike on the dyno a while ago, different air filters made 1hp difference but would have cost £120, just not worth the cost for me.
Its just the same with cars really, the first few hp are comparitively cheap but gaining every last ounce of power can work out very expensive for very little gain. Ok for the track or dragstrip where every little helps but not really worthwhile for a road car.

Once this has all been sorted are you going to get it on a rolling road? Im hoping you had it on the rolling road beforehand so you have actual before and after figures so you can see where your money went!

[skidlid]

In my experience one of the first things that get modified when doing major upgrades of this kind is the intake system. There is absolutely no point spending huge amounts of money on the car to loose some of the benefits. Hot air is less dense than cold air thus contains less oxygen, that means less power. To make things worse a tuned engine will produce more heat thus it will be even hotter under the bonnet than a standard car. From past photo's you have a huge intercooler that covers part of the standard radiator which will make things even worse.

Before an expensive disaster happens suggest you get the cooling and intake sorted. I would be very concerned if it was my car.

If the oil feed is taken from the pressure sensor where does it return too.

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by skidlid

If the oil feed is taken from the pressure sensor where does it return too.

It will return to the sump via gravity by a return pipe that will have been fitted to the sump.

In systems where the turbocharger sits lower than the oil pan, a scavenge pump can be used to pump oil back into the crank case

[jajceko]

well...AyJay answered skidlid question ...i will just add that there is enough room in between the ribs of IC for air to go throu to the radiator...

anyway...my car isnt the first they are making so i think they know what they are talking about...
we did talk about putting CAI further away...but the difference in temperature would be really small...and i really wont drill a hole in my ProCeed for 140-150 hp :P

i have the figures from before upgrade...from GTech...and we will make some after...
i could post some measures what they have on Accent 1.3 75hp-->135hp tomorrow

[skidlid]

Originally Posted by jajceko

I will just add that there is enough room in between the ribs of IC for air to go throu to the radiator

The problem is when the air has passed through the intercooler fins it will be hotter than the air that would normally cool the radiator. Since your air will be hotter than normal due to the position of the air intake being under the bonnet this could mean a significantly higher temp.

So your engine will be running hotter due to the simple fact it will be producing more power, you have reduced the cooling area of the the radiator by placing the intercooler in front of it (the intercooler will reduce the volume of air reaching the radiator) and then most of the air that eventually reaches the radiator will have already been heated by passing through the intercooler fins.

Its a recipe for a very hot engine which will mean reduced power and a short life.

[AyJay]

Although i do agree with what youre saying in principle Skidlid you cannot fail to have seen the number of cars on the road, particularly Jap import Skylines, Scoobies, Evos etc that have mahoosive intecoolers infront of the rad? The seem to function ok and they will be putting out far more power than a Ceed could dream of. A guy i work with had a Scooby that was putting out 350hp ish and another has a Nissan 300sx with similar numbers and they dont seem to have any cooling issues.

It has crossed my mind in the past that a big intercooler would restrict air flow to the radiator but i guess it doesnt as much as i would expect. But then i dont build car engines for a living so maybe i should leave such ideas to those who do!

And im sure the guys who are building this turbo engine know what theyre doing too. Well i bloody hope they do or someone is going to have an expensive ornament for their driveway!

[skidlid]

AyJay

Scooby's, Evo's etc are built as performance cars with turbo's and will have cooling systems that can cope with that performance and possibly even an upgrade. Kia Ceed 1.4's (or any Kia for that matter) are not performance cars and Kia will have designed the cooling system to cope with their power output and Kia will almost certainly not have considered that anyone will fit a turbo, why should they.

There is a huge market in aftermarket tuning parts for the Jap import high performance Turbo's and that includes big radiators. Bet all the cars you see on the road that last any length of time have had one fitted. Never seen a specialist Kia tuning company advertising those kind of products.

There are plenty of specialist engineering companies out there that know what they are doing but there are many more who are just happy to bodge it and leave you stranded and alone. Having been involved with Kit Cars for about 25 years I have seen the work of some real cowboys.

I have had development work carried out on my car once by an engineer who I really trust. Ex works rally and F1 engine builder. I paid for the parts and he covered the labour himself. I got a really cheap upgrade and he made a good profit on all the kits he sold or fitted after, both parties happy.

Don't belive the temperature gauge either, they are damped to show "normal" anywhere between about 75 and 110 degrees. When was the last time you saw your gauge go up when you were sat in traffic, they just sit on normal all day unless there is a catastrophic issue with the engine. So when the 1.4 has its turbo on and running the gauge will not show truthfully how much hotter the engine is actually running unless it hits the maggic number and it shoots into the red zone.

Lets hope he does not have any more issues and gets the car on the road ASAP. However, if it was my car I would be very worried unless the cooling system had been upgraded and not just had the airflow reduced.