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Timing Belt jumped?

13K views 11 replies 2 participants last post by  rc102782 
#1 ·
I am trying to help someone out. They have a 2004 Kia Sedona that won't start. It cranks, but will not run. They bought it about 8 months ago with no warranty. It has 123,000 miles on it, and did not come with any service records. They had the codes pulled and it is showing a P0122 (tps), P0340 (cam position sensor), and P0421 and P0431 (catalytic converters). Based on the cps code, I went to their house and pulled the cam cover for the front bank. The timing belt did not seem extremely bad. It had the Hyundai logo, so I am guessing it is either the factory belt or was replaced at a dealer at some point. However, the timing marks look off to me, but I am not a Kia person. Can anyone confirm this from the attached pic?
 

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#2 ·
You are only supplying a portion of the needed images to provide an answer...

The crank pulley MUST be put in the proper position (alignment mark) BEFORE comparing the cam pulleys...If they match AFTER setting the crank pulley you should be OK..

You are comparing BOTH sets of cam pulleys (on a V6) with the crank pulley but only AFTER setting the crank pulley to it's alignment marks..

I would heavily suggest that the timing belt be replaced NOW... They are only useful for 60k miles and the car is due for a second replacement at the mileage you posted...
The tensioner/Idler pulleys/and water pump should be done at this time also...

"If" you haven't done a KIA/Hyundai V6 timing belt you better do a lot of learning BEFORE attempting the job... This IS an INTERFERENCE type engine and if done wrong you WILL badly damage the engine the first time you try to start it!!!

One of "Murphy's Laws" is "No good deed goes un-punished" and you are ripe for a BIG punishment if you don't know how to properly replace the timing belt and set mechanical timing...
Just trying to save you from a lot of Hell...
Dave
 
#3 ·
Thank you! You made me realize my error. I was stupid tired last night. I am very familiar with interference engines. I have completed automotive technologies schooling, and have worked in a shop. I have done several timing jobs (GMs, Fords, Nissans, and Hondas-no Kias, Hyundais, or Mitsubishis). I am no means a master tech, but I do know how interference engines work. Also, I do not have the time to do a timing belt for her. I based my question off the following. This model does not have any sort of variable valve timing, and both cam sprockets appear to be the same size/number of teeth. If the timing is correct, I assumed both sprockets would have the timing marks at the same position (i.e.-both one below the casting in the cylinder head). Duh! Based on the rotation, of course one sprocket would be one tooth up and one tooth down! Obviously, the other head or crank could be way off, but without pulling the other parts of the timing cover, I can't check that. I tested the fuel pressure. I am guessing the cam position sensor? Any input anyone?
 
#4 ·
Crank Position sensors are a VERY common failure item... The plastic insulation on the three wires becomes dry/brittle and cracks and falls off allowing the leads to touch each other or the engine block...

The stored codes are sometimes wrong and should be used only as a "suggestion" on where to look..

Have you checked for voltage on power leads and signal pulses output during cranking?
KIA ECU/ECMs will not provide spark if either sensor is not running properly.. The ECU depends on the timing and the timing relationship between these sensors.. A digital scope would be a great help in diagnosing this car...

Have you looked for fuel line pressure (and running Fuel pump), working injectors, and available spark?

I also have been known to have a brain fart now and then (and try to correct them)...Wasn't trying to second guess you or your qualifications but just trying to keep you out of trouble...
Dave
 
#5 ·
You are fine. I didn't mean to sound snappy. I just wanted to let you know I am not some kid that saw someone change an air filter once and no think I am an ASE master tech. I met this woman on a Facebook group; her daughter is in a wheelchair and she lives somewhat close. They are not mechanically inclined, so I wanted to help if I could. I am a full time college student (going for Information Technology because I found I do not enjoy changing Acura transmissions for a living), and I have my own family, so I told her I would do some simple stuff. I don't have a scope, and I can't cart all my tools over there. Fuel is good. I will look at the sensor harness. I know the crank and cam sensors rely on each other, and I am leaning towards those being the cause of the no start. I did not know about the ECU cutting spark. It makes me lean even more to one of those sensors being the issue. I know a P0122 can cause most cars to run rough and stall out, but it should not prevent starting. Are Kias different in that aspect? Thanks for helping!
 
#6 ·
First "God bless you for helping her" ..We have all been put on this earth to help each other and you are doing Gods work! If I offend anyone reading this...TOO BAD...
This is what really made America great ...our morals and beliefs...

A compression check on just one bank should confirm that timing is OK...

An analog/mechanical (d'Arsonval meter movement) meter should show the pulses as bumps in the needle's movement on the outputs of these sensors..

I don't believe the P0122 code would also keep the car from running and is a secondary problem...

The Honda/Acura V6s and the KIA V6s are pretty close in designs... I have replaced TBs tensioners, and water pumps on both... with the exception of Honda's famous crank holding tool :)

We are here to help in any case because we truly like our KIAs and don't want them to get a bad rap on quality and serviceability from lack of info...

I'd love to hear you got it going...
Dave
 
#7 ·
My brother-in-law has my compression tester, so that is out. I can check for spark easily enough, and will do that when I can get over there. I will also check that harness. Since I do not have a scope, do you think she should replace the sensor (it is like $70 at Autozone)? If she has the van towed to a shop with a scope, she is going to spend more than $70. That is my thinking anyway.
 
#8 ·
Let me add to and rephrase my last post. First of all, the van's owner said it had stalled out. They got it home, changed the spark plugs, and it started. They then drove it to Autozone to have the codes read. When they got it home, it would not start again. Now, considering the tools available, I will test for spark and try to inspect the crank sensor harness. If there is no spark and the crank sensor harness looks ok, should she take a gamble and replace the cam sensor since their is a code for that and I can do it for her? As I had said, the $70 sensor is cheaper than having the van towed to a shop with a scope, and whatever the shop's diagnostic fee is. All opinions are appreciated!
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the tip Dave. It was only like $25 on eBay. However, when she got the money together, she needed her van running. I found some coupon codes for Advanced Auto, so she ended up paying $50 for it. I put it in today and her van started. Yay! It started stalling out though, so I checked the codes, and she has a P0102. I unplugged the MAF and it didn't stall out anymore. I left my multimeter at home, so I couldn't test it. I found a mass air flow sensor on eBay for less than $25, so I let her know. Thank you for the help with the cam sensor Dave!
 
#11 ·
You might want to try cleaning the MAF with MAF spray cleaner...Do NOT use carb cleaner before you spend money on a MAF...

The car goes into "limp" mode when the MAF is disconnected... It reads stored air/fuel ratios and tries to "guess" what is the best it can do with readings from the other sensors...

Just a simple thing like a dirty MAF can cause you problems....

AND don't forget your local salvage yard for parts cheap...

You will probably want to remove/clean/ and reinstall the IAC (idle air control) valve...
With 123k miles I'm sure that it is carboned up and the idle is probably pretty lousy...

Keep us posted....
Dave
 
#12 ·
For $20 for a new MAF, I was thinking she shouldn't waste the $8 on MAF cleaner. I have never had any luck with that stuff in the past. I will let her know about the IAC, but I think she is going to try and sell the van. She doesn't want to pay $500 for a timing belt job. Thanks for the suggestions!
 
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