Kia Forum banner

Engine rattle at startup issue

70K views 32 replies 18 participants last post by  ron1004 
#1 ·
I have a new Cadenza (purchased July last year) and I started getting an engine rattle a few months ago at startup. It lasts about a second and then goes away, but it is quite loud and sounds like metal on metal (valves knocking or a timing belt touching metal). I took it to the dealer twice now and brought up my concern: first time they said they couldn't hear it. Second time they said they heard it and it is normal....
Logically, normal doesn't make much sense to me because this sound wasn't there when I bought it - I also don't hear the rattle on any other Cadenza's starting up. So that would mean all the other Cadenza's are not normal....
Something obviously changed in my engine that caused this annoying loud noise.

The noise is only at startup and when the engine is cold (has been sitting for 30 minutes or more). I live in So. California so the temp never gets cold. No other oil changes/filters done outside of what Kia service has done. This also is not the normal GDI type ticking while the engine runs - I understand the GDI type of engine does have a normal tick during running; this noise is a loud rattle for a second right after startup.

Curious if anyone else is experiencing this noise rattle at startup.
 
See less See more
#4 ·
Are you Sure that your Cadenza is getting the Appropiate Viscosity Oil and not too High?

How much Seconds last the Oil Light lit at the instrument Cluster, after the Startup?

If the Light is Lit the same amount of time than the Rattle lasts, then I would consider that also it might be a problem with the Lubricating system on the engine; either caused by too high viscosity values on the Oil, or by a failing oil pump / Clogged oil Filter.

Kind Regards.
 
#5 ·
Mine does the same thing from time to time. To me it sounds like a a lifter is not getting oil for a split second. My Optima made the same sound from time to time but only on the first start of the day and no other time. Like I said it is very infrequent. Asked the dealer about it on both cars and he said they will do that sometime. He gave me no reason, almost like the old stock phrase: they all do that.
 
#7 · (Edited)
It could be the oil filter 'anti drain back valve' / check valve.

It is widely reported that many non-OEM filters do not have this feature, or it does not work as well as the OEM.
The OEM filter's check valve could also fail.

I would try a new OEM filter.

What is an anti drain back valve?

It stops oil from draining out of filter and oil galleries when the engine is shut down and aids quick flow of oil to engine on start up. Not all filters require anti drain back valve due to the construction of the engine.


What is the by-pass valve?

Should the oil filter become blocked, the valve will open allowing oil to flow into the engine. (Unfiltered oil is better than no oil).


Possible Fram Oil Filter Check Valve Failure | Oil Filters | Bob Is The Oil Guy

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/339
 
#8 · (Edited)
Please don't flame me for this response since it has to do with an oil additive. I don't sell any products and have used this since 1987 with phenomenal results and this would include my 2014 Kia Cadenza.

I too was having a little engine noise right at start up after the car sat for the night. The rattle sound came from the engine and sounded like the timing chain or the valves/cam were making some clatter from a cold start. I never experienced this from a hot start. It made me wonder, with the new cartridge type oil filter, if maybe there was an oil starvation problem at cold start up as I do not know if these newer filters have a anti drain back valve.

When I did my last oil change at 7549 miles I started using an oil additive I've used since 1987, Tufoil (Tufoil Engine Oil Treatment). I used Super Tech (Yes Walmart!) 10W30 full synthetic with a Purolator oil filter. The first treatment of Tufoil is 2 oz per quart (12 oz for the Cadenza) so I replaced 12 oz of oil with Tufoil. After the initial treatment 1 oz per quart is all that is needed.

After about 250 miles I could feel the engine run a little smoother. On cold start up the engine noise is now completely gone. And best of all my fuel mileage has increased an average of 7% to 8%. It seems the sweet spot for this car is 65 MPH. On a level interstate road with the cruise control I set I regularly get 33 to 34 MPG since using Tufoil. Before that I was getting 29 to 30 MPG. I manually calculate my mileage using the amount of fuel I've used and the miles driven although the car computer is pretty accurate.

I'm not saying run out and by some Tufoil. Please go out and do your own research. What I can say is I've been using this product in all my vehicles since 1987 and it has worked as advertised. Cooler running engine, easier hot and cold starts, better gas mileage, increase engine longevity. For my Cadenza Tufoil did eliminate the cold start up clatter after a couple hundred miles of use and better gas mileage.

I hope it works for all of you just as well as it has worked for me .

Best regards,

Steve
 
#9 ·
Engine Noise at Start-up

not saying that all noises are the same, but i just had repairs on my Cadenza for the bad metal knocking on start-up. Dealership replaced both intake cams, timing chain, and VCCT unit. Repairs took about 3 days and car is back in great condition running better than ever and NO noise. I would advise getting with a service manager and a complete engine diagnosis performed.
Hope this helps.
 
#14 ·
New update from previous post 9/28. After several months noise has returned. Just took car back to KIA and confirmed it is the same parts again. Service Manager explained this is a known problem and KIA is developing and permanent solution with modified parts. This is in development now and should have in about 30 days. Good to know KIA is working to resolve. Will keep all posted as parts come in.
 
#15 ·
Add me to the start up noise/rattle club 3.3L V6 KIA Sorento



I bought my 2014 KIA Sorento with 37,000 miles and I never noticed the rattle because when you are buying a used car they generally bring the car to you warm. I don't think the issue is the running temperature though as the noise in my vehicle only lasts 3 to 4 seconds on start up and then it goes away. There is no way the engine goes from cold to warm in 4 seconds. I read the noise may be related to the oil filter draining and it taking a while to get the oil to the engine. I tested this theory by waiting a few hours and taking the filter cap off the filter housing and it was empty and it did not look like the oil had drained when I opened the housing as next to no oil was dripping from the filter. If it had just drained the filter would have been soaked in oil and dripping. I put it back together and sure enough there was the 3 to 4 second rattle. As soon as it went away I stopped the engine (still cold) it had only been running for maybe 6 seconds. Then I mediately started the engine again and found that the second time there was no noise/rattle. I stopped and started it several times after and I had no noise or rattle in each consequent try. I think that somewhat supports the filter draining and having to be filled before the oil can get to the valve train and quiet it down, because the second and third time I started it, it would still be cold as no more than a minute had passed but I am sure that the filter housing would still have oil in it or if not the valve train would still be well enough lubricated to not make the noise. BTW I am using the Hyundai/Kia Oil Filter, 26320-3CAA0 and I did take it out to inspect the O-Rings and they look fine and the bottom O-ring fits snugly into the bottom hole in the filter housing so I believe it's making a good seal there. I went back 45 minutes later and tried the exact same experiment again and got the same result. So it looks like the filter housing will drain of oil over a 45 minute period and cause this noise/rattle to happen again. My two cents worth. I wonder if this will be the case for others who try this too. I also wonder whether this is an actual problem or just an annoying trait? My Sonata GDI 2.0T engine did not have this noise/rattle when starting.
 
#18 ·
So, to get this straight, we are talking about the ticking noise from the lifters within a few seconds after startup? My Sportage has developed a ticking noise at around 4000 miles on the odometer. It would only last for around 2 seconds and would go away. I did the first oil change at 5000 miles and the ticking noise went away. One great thing about the engine in my Sportage, the 2.4L, is that the oil filter sits upside down (openings on the filter face up). This means that oil will never drain out of the filter when the engine is off.
 
#20 ·
#21 · (Edited)
I hope these comments will be helpful to those searching for the remedy to your problem. I own three Hyundai vehicles all with 3.8L V6 engines. My 2011 Azera with 80,000 miles recently developed what I believe is the same problem. My other two vehicles also have the same problem but only very slightly. I began to worry about irreversible damage and researched, and discovered the timing chain tensioners wear out. Specifically, the ratchet teeth on the plunger inside the tensioner assembly wear off preventing the tensioner from maintaining tension against the timing chain(s) when engine is at rest with a gradual loss of oil pressure over time. Until the oil pressure restores the plunger to its proper position at startup, the chain is loose and eventually chain lash begins to rub on the chain cover, the engine block, or it will erode the guides, depending on how worn the tensioners are. I just replaced all chain guides, all chains, the oil pump, and all tensioners. I will let you know the result in a few days but I already can tell the engine is much quieter overall and it even runs better in general. Feel free to ask questions.

February 22nd Update.
Several days after the repair, the noise reappeared; A major disappointment. The old parts look ok, though there is some noticeable wear on both tensioner sprocket racks. Since new parts did not solve the problem, it's obvious the source of the noise is elsewhere in the engine. I tried an oil additive, Lucas oil modifier. It quieted the engine for a few days but eventually had a diminishing effect. The only thing affecting the noise is surging the RPM to 3000 for 0.5 seconds just before last shutdown of the day. This seems to work pretty consistently.
 
#24 ·
I hope these comments will be helpful to those searching for the remedy to your problem .…
The 'your problem' that you are referring to was reported in 2014 on a nine month old vehicle, which makes it virtually impossible to be the 'wear' issue that you are talking about in your post. This is why it's rarely a good idea to dredge up a long dead thread, instead of simply telling your own story.


…. researched, and discovered the timing chain tensioners wear out. Specifically, the ratchet teeth on the plunger inside the tensioner assembly wear off preventing the tensioner from maintaining tension against the timing chain(s) when engine is at rest with a gradual loss of oil pressure over time. ….
How about posting a close up picture of the old tensioner from your vehicle. If the ratchet teeth 'wear off' as you described above, then your vehicle's factory tensioner must clearly show significant wear, compared to a new one.
 
#22 ·
I have a 2014 Cadenza that has had the Cam Chain tensioners replaced twice under Warranty, once @ 36,600 miles and again at 75,00 miles. I inspected the tensioners that came out last year and the ratchet teeth looked fine but obviously they were not up to the task. Such a simple device, but poorly designed. Otherwise, an outstanding vehicle.
 
#23 ·
I agree; The Cadenza really performs. So does our Azera and my wife loves it! Just started the car for the first time after replacing all the chain parts. Still noisy like my other two vehicles until oil pressure builds but no audible chain drag. Significantly quieter running. In another blog, it is stated that Hyundai has issued improved tensioners. I can only hope those I just installed are the improved. Back in a few months with an update.
 
#29 ·
I've been all through this. Cost me $2600 to determine the chains, guides, and tensioners were perfectly fine. No visibly detectable wear on the engine or head castings, guides or chains. I even installed a new oil pump and its chain with no improvement. However, the noise is created by the chains due to a faulty VVT Solenoid Valve or valves. They control the oil pressure to the VVT (variable valve timing) system which retards and advances valve timing. You can buy them OEM for around $125 each, or you can find them on eBay for around $30 each. I removed the two INTAKE solenoids and found one to be heavily contaminated. The solenoid drives a spool valve piston. The solenoid can fail due to a coil weakness, electrical problem requiring replacement, or it can fail due to contamination which limits the piston excursion by obstruction. Hard contaminant particles will prevent complete excursion or can damage the valve body interior by scoring the cylinder's walls. After I cleaned the spool valve and re-installed it, the noise was worse, much worse. (This was a big relief for me because it was clear I was working directly on the problem.) I shut down the engine and re-started quiet as a mouse! It's been that way ever since, maybe 15 to 20 cold starts! Yesterday, I did hear the noise for about 1/1000th of a second. I have loaded the engine with "Seafoam" to attack the contaminant issue and it likely has loosened dormant contaminant and recreated the problem. I just cold started again two minutes ago and all is well.

Here's my theory: The engine design is faulty in not providing adequate oil flow in the area of the solenoid valve. This lack of turbulence creates a quiescent place where contamination can settle up against the end of the valve. Oil enters and exits the valve "radially". The end of the valve body, where the bulk of contaminant was found, is closed. As contamination accumulates it will eventually reach the entrance to the valve and cause a problem. On cold start, the eventual surge in oil flow will force contaminant out of the valve and eliminate the noise in a second or so, maybe 20 to 30 turns of the cam. The valve's improper function is likely exhibited in an oscillation which creates pressure pulses IN BOTH DIRECTIONS OF THE CAM. This stresses the chain with back & forth forces and makes a sh't load of noise. A bad VVT Solenoid Valve will break a chain! So fixing this problem is critical to long engine life.

I am replacing the two intake VVT solenoid valves, just to ensure the problem is not caused electrically and spool valve interior surfaces are not compromised. I suggest you do the same or have it done. It takes about two hours to do the job. Be extremely careful to clean the valve area prior to removal so debris is not accidentally pushed into the engine. Please also note: You should check if your engine has "Exhaust" VVT's as well. They are harder to access and to replace, and they are more expensive. I own three Hyundai 3.8L cars all with Intake VVT valves only, so figuring this out is a big deal for me.

Hope this is helpful.
 
#30 ·
…. Here's my theory: The engine design is faulty in not providing adequate oil flow in the area of the solenoid valve. This lack of turbulence creates a quiescent place where contamination can settle up against the end of the valve. ...
First off I'll say that these OCV solenoids have been reported numerous times in the past on the Kia/Hyundai forums as being the cause of noise, codes, and performance issues. Reports of gunk in the valves, sometimes along with mechanical failures are not uncommon at all, and one of the first typical suggestions posted is to inspect these valves. So I'm in complete agreement with you that OCV issues can and do cause a number of other problems.

However, what's new here is your idea that the root cause of the OCV problems is an engine design flaw which prevents 'contamination' from being properly and completely flushed away from the OCV. (hopefully I correctly summarized your theory). My question about that idea is why is there any contamination in the oil in the first place? Current oil (particularly full synthetic) and filters are extremely effective at keeping oil free of any such contaminates, and an engine that's properly maintained at the specified oil change intervals should not be getting significant contaminates anywhere in the engine. And certainly never at the level that would be able to plug up an OCV and prevent it from functioning properly.

In the great majority of accounts of gunked-up OCV solenoids, it typically turns out that either poor oil maintenance is confirmed, or (far more often) the report is from a second owner, who has no knowledge of most of the oil change history. What I've written here is based on lots of travelling around the Kia/Hyundai forums, but I'm not extending this to suggest that your oil maintenance has been sub-par, because I certainly have no way of knowing anything about that. And I'm also not saying your design flaw theory is wrong, only that significant contaminates IMO should never be in the oil of a well-maintained engine.

In any case, it's good to read you finally discovered the problem after going on such a long journey to find it. And thanks for sharing what you did.
 
#33 ·
You'll always hear old tech hands mention "hydraulic oil has to be super clean", now with the latest developments such as VVT using OCV's we are using the engine oil not only for lubricant but also for the VVT hydraulics, making modern engines far more at risk when it comes to poor oil maintenance.

I wouldn't call it a design issue that the OVC's get fouled and malfunction, .........all brands using this technology suffer from this.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top