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New alternator and new battery but still have problems. Help

177K views 36 replies 13 participants last post by  jlps 
#1 ·
I guess the problem really started in June. We get back to the van after watching a baseball game and it is dead. Get a friend to come give us a jump and we make it home. Use my battery charger to charge the battery and once charged I test the alternator with the charger and it says it is ok. I replace the battery and all seems fine till about a week ago.

Wife is out cleaning it out and listening to the radio. About 20 mins later she comes in and says the battery is dead. Charge up the battery and test the alternator. Test says it is bad. Spent last weekend changing it out along with both belts. Get it all back together and battery and parking brake light is on. Charge up the battery and lights are still on. Leave alone for a few hours and go to start and it just clicks. Put old battery from June back in (still had it) and it starts right up. Lights eventually go out and I think new battery is bad. Go back out to test a few hours later and lights are back on. Take for a drive and eventually lights go off. Check again a few hours later (around dusk) and this time the lights are back on again. Go out for a drive and it is dark enough out to notice the lights aren't turning off completely but they are just flickering.

Tonight I get a new battery and with fingers crossed install it. Lights are still on. Charge the battery to full but still, lights are on when you start it up. They will go off or fade in and out eventually like before when driving. I noticed around 45mph is when the lights will go out but as soon as you get off the gas or go to brake, the lights start fading and flickering. Along with this I have

1. Checked the belt tightness... can't see how it can get any tighter as the pulley gets out of alignment

2. Checked the ground on the alternator to make sure it was tight.

3. Check the Mass Meter fuse to see if blown

4. Checked with a meter to make sure battery was outputting correct volts.

I'm at a loss here. I am now kind of hopeing Hurricane Earl takes a little more of a turn to the west because I think there will just have to be some "storm" damage. I have googled and searched here and everything says bad battery or alternator. Please help with any ideas. Thanks
 
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#2 ·
fill out profile - location, car...
have you checked what is current drain from battery while not in use?
Also, when the lights start to dim/flicker - what is the voltage reading?

plug the multimeter set to V into anything (cigarettes lighter or so) and keep monitoring voltage.

as for the flickering thing - external lights or all of them (instrument cluster too?)

Alternator may be OK, but the voltage regulator may be bad. Sometimes this is buried in BCM so alternator replacement will not fix it.

On the other hand - if a new freshly charged battery does not hold radio for more than 20 minutes - you have some extra drain (short circuit somewhere...)
 
#4 ·
Sorry about that. It was late and I forget to give details. I will update my profile but its a 2003 Sedona EX with 3.5v6 location, South East Virginia, USA.

When I say the lights flicker I mean just the battery and parking brake idiot lights flicker and fade. Nothing else is affected. The van even drives better with the new alternator and belts (old belts) so this issue is just really getting to me. When I say new battery, it was new as of June of this year. So it had a few months to ride around with a failing alternator. The battery in there now is not even a day old. I will have to look into your other suggestions, thanks.
 
#3 ·
Wish we could help....BUT.... without you filling out your CP section of your profile you could be anywhere on this globe with a multitude of different versions of this model car.
You said you checked the "alternator ground" but did you check the ground wire from the battery to the body frame and the ground wire from the engine to the body frame? Depending on yr and model of sedona you may also have an "enable" wire (line) going to the alternator "jacK" mounted on it. If the enable line does not have 12~13.4 volts on it or if the connections feeding the alternator are corroded you will have the "battery" light on and there will be NO charging system running while the engine is on.
Please fill out your profile with a "general" location, year, model, engine size, type fuel used (gas/diesel) then we can help you with specifics.
good luck from another
"David Mc" in Ohio USA
 
#5 ·
Hurricane Earl comment should sort of give me away but I will get that filled out. I did check to make sure the ground from the negative batt cable was tight and free of corrosion. I looked at and tightened the ground on the post of the alternator but it was 11:00 pm and I had a hard enough time seeing with just the LED work light I had. Sounds like I will be at it again this weekend after the rain and wind blow throw.
 
#6 ·
Just pulled out the multimeter again and checked numbers again. connected to the battery with engine not running it reads 12.8 Volts roughly. Start the engine and it reads about 14.8-14.6 Volts. Put a load (AC, Radio, Lights) and it drops to 14.3-.2. All of these numbers seem to be in range and like I said, the battery light eventually turns off.

To me it looks like the alternator is charging the battery no matter what the dummy lights say. Last night I went out to start it and the van cranked right up with no battery dummy light on. The air was pretty humid and warm so I don't know if that could of had anything to do with it.

Any other thoughts are appreciated.
 
#9 ·
mrafrost...
If you read his earlier posts he did replace the alternator.
DavidMc...
I know that newer cars have a higher charging voltage but 14.6~14.8 volts seems a little high. I would think for your year car 13.4~13.8 volts should be more in the proper range... BUT... I may be wrong. Too high a voltage will cook the new battery and shorten it's life dramatically. We need others to chip in with their average charging voltages for this model and year.
I have read about crystallized solder connections on the Printed circuit board that all the dash lights and meters/gauges are soldered to. You might want to look for broken connections on this board. Also look for a bad ground return from the dash gauges to the inside firewall.
I know I sound like I'm beating a dead horse BUT ground problems have caused many problems on this forum.
ps.... a bad ground return from the alternator to the car's body WILL cause some voltage drop at the alternator's voltage regulator (internal) and the output voltage will climb by that amount.
Dave
 
#10 ·
Thanks again. Everything that I can see looks good and I can confirm the ground from the alternator is doing its job as I had a major brain fart and brushed the socket extension against the manifold while trying to make sure the nut for the ground was tight. The lights were before that incident. Everything that I know to look for looks ok. I peeked under the dash but I didn't see anything that looked loose. I can do jobs like alternator swaps or starter and such but other then that, I am a noob. I am totally lost as this is not how a vehicle is supposed to work after you swap in a new alternator. But this van has been the biggest POS since we got it. This was the 3rd alternator, 4th battery, and this is the second motor. Thats just the tip of the iceberg on this lemon crate that we bought. But its paid for and that is the only positive so far. Sorry for the rant but I'm just frustrated with this thing. Thanks for the advice but it maybe time to take it in someplace.
 
#11 ·
Well I think the problem has been discovered. I took apart the radiator brakcet again to clean the ground cable on the alternator after not getting any reading from that ground to the positive on the battery while running (not sure if I tested it right though to). While I am cleaning with sand paper (no steel bristle brush) I noticed the tip is falling off in my hand and the cooper underneath is brittle and breaking. Not sure what the next step is from here other then trying to find this particular run of cable. I am so very frustrated its beyond belief. Labor day plans were cancelled because of this car.
 

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#12 ·
Just to add some theories which may or may not help, it does cover some of the same area you've looked at. (a second voltmeter makes this easier but still possible with one):-
ALWAYS USE THE VOLTMETER ON VOLTS FOR THIS NEVER, AMPS/CURRENT

Get the voltmeter directly across battery terminals.
If the voltage on the battery measured at the battery terminals is a higher when the engine is idling than the reading when the engine is off then that suggests the alternator is supplying current at a reasonable volts to charge the battery so the alternator seems good.
In that case to me it looks the alternator is good with a good circuit to the battery and charging the battery.

So it's not the alternator

You changed the battery so lets assume the battery itself is good.

So your problem is you can't get the engine to turnover (just the click? of the solenoid).

When the fault manifests and the car does not start measure the volts directly across the battery without trying to start/crank the engine.
Whats the volts on the battery?

What voltage reads across the battery terminals. If close to 12 (can be a little less and still not be the cause, then the battery appears to be reasonable)

Still measuring directly across battery terminals now get someone to try start/crank the engine.

Whats the voltage directly across the battery during the attempt at cranking?

If this voltage directly measured at the battery takes a significant dive during cranking, then it is trying to supply current to the cranking circuit i.e. starter motor.
(if it takes a massive massive dive its a sign the battery is gubbed)

So if the engine does not turn then with the starter motor drawing current either
its obstructed mechanically
or
there is a short in some coils of the starter motor
or
battery itself is poorish with an internal hi impedance (unlikely as you said its new).
Don't think any of this is the first to suspect .



If the battery voltage during the attempt at cranking, does not take a dive at the battery terminals then there is a resistance between the battery and the starter motor that is in effect obstructing full power getting to the starter motor.

Next step take the key out of ignition (obviously be careful not to get your hands in next to belts an bands when the engine is going to be started, too easy to do when getting frustrated!)

Get the voltmeter leads directly onto the starter motor at the starter motor. Position the meter so you can see it easily and safely when someone tries to start the engine.

Whats the volts across the starter motor when cranking? if they are reasonable then the starter motor is getting the juice but not doing the business. (brushes in starter motor duff maybe , open circuit coil, check the connections.

If under cranking the measured volts at the starter motor are significantly lower than the volts directly across the battery terminals then the starter motor is not getting the juice it needs even though the battery can supply it.

its the wiring to the starter motor or the soleniod contacts that supply the starter motor current.

I think the reason you are getting away with replacing batteries and alternators and it comes good is because the new components(higher voltage) just manage to make up for another issue, an impedance in the battery,solenoid,alternator,startermotor circuit to do with round the car in either the positive or negative (ground) that is causing your car issues.

Let us know if you get further with it, definitley also worth checking whats the expected correct voltage that should appear after the regulator.

Good Luck.
 
#14 ·
That was indeed the problem. In hopes of saving the weekend I pulled out my good old friend Electrical tape and tried to get a temp fix going. Straightened the connection out and wrapped it as tightly as I could to keep it rigid. Put it all back together making sure not to bend it and all is good for now. I don't know if soldering that connection would be a more permanent solution. I did a quick search and was not able to easily find that set of cables. Thanks again for all the help.
 
#15 ·
DaveMc...
You need to BADLY replace that ground wire... With all the broken braids at the lug you are limiting the amount of current flow through it (increased resistance=lower current flow) and NOW the 14v plus volts makes sense....there IS an actual voltage drop between the alternator frame and the engine/body/frame of 1.5 volts. The internal voltage regulator is bumping the output of the alternator UP that amount to 14.7 volts.
(kiatechinfo.com states ANYTHING above 13.2 volts is over charging the battery.
That's why you have been replacing the batteries so often! It's also why you replaced a GOOD alternator thinking the alternator was killing them.
REPLACE THAT GROUND WIRE NOW!!!! and if you can use a larger diameter wire. Put silicon grease all over the lug areas (under the lugs too!).
I hit the nail right on the head!
Now your Sedona really isn't a POS you just need to keep on it and visit your friends on "kia-forums" more often.
Us "DaveMc's " can solve anything :)
 
#16 ·
just to give some more details about chemistry...
13.2 V is a resting voltage of fully charged wet lead-acid battery (wet - acid is in liquid form, not gel) - in theory; in practice voltage will quickly drop to 13.2 (fully charged) and then to 12.8-12.6. Normal condition.
IF you want to charge it, you need to apply a voltage of more than 13.8 V in order to REVERSE discharge reaction, which is spontaneous. Therefore, voltage during charging (when engine is running) is more than that. Normal charging voltage is 14.1-14.5 V. One one though here - at 14.4 you deal with gassing. In other words - any voltage more than 14.4 will cause electrolyte to decompose. To be more exact, you will produce hydrogen and oxygen (separately on each electrode), that's why from time to time it is important to add WATER. Nowadays the water (H2 + 1/2O2 = H2O) is condensed in the battery, so no worries about it.

And last thing - the battery consists of cells, exactly 6 of them. Each (as said above) fully charged is rater 2.1-2.2V, in total giving 12.6-13.2V. Gassing voltage (2.4 V).

Reassuming - the lowest allowed voltage while engine running is 14.0, and highest 14.4. If voltage drops below 13.8 with several devices being in use (headlights, stereo, wipers, heated rear window, A/C...), and will not go up with RPM increase - there is a problem.
 
#17 ·
Thanks for all the additional information. I do want to get that cable switched out as I don't like it running that way for to long. I did a quick search but didn't see the part so I will have to look into it more this week. Thanks to everyone again and I will definitely be back for future problems.
 
#18 ·
PLP...
I took the overcharge voltage (greater than 13.2v) directly from kiatech's web site for that model and year in their "SHOP" section. I agree with the concepts behind your post for newer yr cars but with for this year (03) KIA their manual states lower charging voltages.
Take it as you will...(meaning no offense) I was only following KIA specs.
Dave
 
#20 · (Edited)
Dave,
no worries, I do not feel offended at all.
I only gave more insight in chemistry of the wet lead acid batteries.
I can assure you that if the voltage regulator was providing 13.2 V to the battery it would take forever to recharge it.
I am not saying they are wrong, but obviously there is a mistake (unless the battery in this 2003 KIA has lower voltage).

Again - from chemistry point of view - charging voltage should fall between 13.8-14.4.
13.2-13.4V would be good to keep battery charged - so called float or preservation voltage.

EDIT:
well, YES, 13.2 V will recharge battery to some point, but for sure will not make the battery 100% charged. You can imagine completely discharged battery with V of 11.8, then yes, 13.2 will recharge it to about 80% or so.
 
#19 ·
Dave...
Most auto parts stores should have heavy grounding straps in stock. Just be sure that they are at least as heavy or heavier than the originals. Besides the original design failed so why put the same problem back on?
 
#22 ·
Sunny pc...
If you check the whole post you'll find that the ground strap from the alternator to the car's body was corroded causing the problem. This problem was solved.
Dave
 
#24 ·
So glad I've stumbled accross this thread as I seem to have a similar charging problem with my 2004 sedona LE. I don't think enough voltage is going to the battery while engine is running. Measured voltage at battery before starting engine and it was 12.3v. when started up it dipped to approx 11.5v, but even while running engine for a while it only just got back up to 12.3v. Having read this thread am I correct to assume the voltage at the battery should be greater whith engine running???? It does increase slightly while revving engine, but dips back to 12 ish when idling.

Only had the van 5 days but its gone flat twice now, both times needing jump leads to kick it back to life. I foresee a week of searching dodgy wiring.

Will pop back here to update you all..
 
#25 ·
with all deices switched off you should be reading 13.6-14.5 V on the battery terminals. Anything more or less - PROBLEM.

Keep in mind that the battery could be also at fault!! But first follow all the advices here (cleaning clamps, checking connections, grounds...) and see if this helps.

Also - have the voltage regulator checked. 6 years old car - the alternator itself may require some maintenance (brushes could be bad by now).
 
#26 ·
Well, my random sedona is now in the garage where we bought it from, and has now been there almost 2 weeks. Two auto-electricians have had a look at it and can't see a problem. How reliable these people are though I have no idea. The car is now onto its 3rd new battery in less than 2 months. (luckily under warranty). With a new battery the car runs fine for between 1 week, and 4 weeks before deciding it doesn't want to start. It's getting to the point where I wish it would disapear so I can move on and buy something more reliable, like a shopping trolley, or a bus pass. If I or the garage ever get to the bottom of the problem I will post something on here.
 
#27 ·
Thurly maybe see a new thread I posted today. I get the impression a few garages do not understand the difference between available voltage and available current. Current is what the Sedona needs in large quantities to turn the engine.
If your battery is charging when driving, easily checked with a budget volt meter and engine idling, then the problem is the battery or that the path to the starte motor is high resistance limiting the current available. Check all body grounds etc. Have a few posts on this not just todays so search on my m sedona posts. Good Luck.
 
#28 ·
Hello,

I have 2006 Kia Sedona EX with all the trimmings. We bought this used with 55K on it. It currently has 61K miles on it.

About 2 months ago it would not start without a jump. It would turn over and the lights and doors would work. We took it in numerous times. This is what was done on it: Reprogram the power doors. New IPM module. New battery. New Alternator. We had the problems up until the battery and alternator were replaced. It held for 3 weeks and today my wife couldn't get it to start. I went to check the ground like was described earlier in this thread. Looks like a brand new cable was installed with the new battery. I then popped the fuse box and starting pushing on the fuses. When I got to the fuel relay pump it was loose. I pushed it down and then went to start the vehicle. The vehicle started and since then It started 3 more times today with no problems.

I will see if the vehicle fails to start over the next week and if it does I will see if the fuse is loose again.

We had this at the dealership and they ran all the tests on battery, alternator, starter and they could never get the problem to come up.

Maybe someone else having this problem could check the fuses to see if any are loose. I am hoping this is the problem as I do not know what to do if it doesn't start and it is not the fuse.


Teutonic
 
#30 ·
I have a 2003 kia sedona..with a 3.5.. the alternator went out and i put a new one in along with new belts.. now my battery and brake light is very dim and flickering..i just had the van inspected. And the mechanic that inspected it told me to change the positive and negative battery wires.. that it was possible for them to have corrosion.. so i did.. well its still doing it.. he also told me that if it didn't work then i would probably need a new starter.. i have never heard that before out of all mu years working on cars.. this van has me lost.. wanted to get some ideas before i put the money out for a new starter.. help me plz..
 
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