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#21 (permalink) Old 02-20-2013, 09:35 PM
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So I checked the fuel pump ground and cleaned it but no Joy. The pump is brand new along with filter, regulator, and injectors. The fuse is fine but as I posted previously Im not getting a voltage reading on either side with fuse removed.

Could this be an ECM gone bad? The reason I say this is because I decided to pull the plugs and they were wet with gas after cranking for a minute.

I then pulled all plugs out and connected them to their respective plug and coil pack for testing. Here's what I found:

Sparkbadwire - YouTube

As you can see in the video all but one spark plug was firing.

I went and bought new wires and here is the result:

Sparknewwires - YouTube

So all the plugs were firing but the #3 plug seemed like it was weaker than the rest. A blueish purple spark not bright white.

The car now turns over but shuts off after a few seconds, and does not sound good. I tried swapping the coil pack but get the same weak #3 spark.

I know there is fuel but dont feel the relay click when I turn the key to on. And dont hear the pump turn on.

Could this be the ECM???????????
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#22 (permalink) Old 02-21-2013, 10:09 AM
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You said "So I checked the fuel pump ground and cleaned it but no Joy. The pump is brand new along with filter, regulator, and injectors. The fuse is fine but as I posted previously Im not getting a voltage reading on either side with fuse removed."
I checked the actual wiring (at kiatechinfo.com) for the fuel pump and it shows (progressively)
1 always Hot (+12v unswitched) line to pin# 1(common) of the fuel pump relay..
2 from pin#3 (n/o) of fuel pump relay
2 to the 10amp fuse (side1)
4 from the fuse (side2) to a pink/black wire
5 from pink/black wire through the harness to a pink wire (at the fuel pump)
5 from pink wire directly to the fuel pump (+)
6 from the fuel pump (-) to black wire to ground

There will be NO +12v on the fuse holder UNTIL the ECM turns the fuel pump relay it on..

NOTE: If the ECM does not see the crank sensor pulses AND the cam sensor pulses AND if they are not in the correct timing relation with each other (crank and cam) The ECM WILL turn off the fuel pump relay in a very short period of time..
ALSO...If there is pressure in the fuel rail when you turn the key ON the fuel pump may not come on (it all ready has pressure) UNTIL the pressure drops and THEN the ECM will cycle the fuel pump relay back on to provide more fuel/pressure.

So you are getting gas...getting spark (even though it's crappy)...and I believe you have gotten the engine to run "poorly" from your posts.

WET plugs (with gas) show there is enough pressure to push gas through the injectors (we don't know the pressure in the rail as of yet) but I'd believe it's enough for the engine to run..

One law of electronics is "for current to flow there must be a completed loop". ..break the loop... no current will flow.

The loop for the high voltage spark for cylinders 2 and three is...
1 starting point (ground at the treads of the plug (say #2 plug))
2 next across the gap of #2 plug and into the spark plug wire
3 from the spark plug wire into one HV connection on the coil pack
4 to the internal coil wiring (one side) and through the coil to the other side.
5 out of the coil pack through the other HV connection
6 through the spark plug wire going to #3 plug (center electrode)
7 across the spark gap to ground electrode (the threaded body of the plug)

This is the completed "loop" from ground through plug#2 through coil to plug#3 and back to ground...

If there is a problem with the spark at #3plug and #2plug has a healthy spark then there is either a high resistance (soaked/damaged #3plug allowing the spark to drain away ) or the ground pulse (from the ECM) to the primary of this coil pack may not be pulled down fully (bad connection).

Unplug the two coil packs (leaving the plugs still connected and touching the engine block) and reverse the plug going into the #2 & #3 coil pack with the
plug going into #1 & #4 coil pack)
Everything the same BUT the ECM is now firing the "other" coils AND plugs...
DID the poor spark MOVE from #2 & #3 TO #1 OR #4 set of plugs??

If SO... the low voltage wiring going to the ECM OR the ECM is at fault at the #2 & #3 coils..
BECAUSE it moved to the #1 & #4 coil and plugs..

If NOT ...the ECM and wiring are OK and should not be replaced...
I would then look inch by inch at the wiring from the coil pack through the wiring harness plugs and sockets back to the ECM..

We eliminated the coil packs and plugs by switching them around and the only constant was the low voltage wiring that followed the bad connection from one coil pack/plugs to the other.

REMEMBER that the engine WILL NOT run with the coil pack wiring reversed...We are only looking at "if" the bad spark problem moves as a test.

The primary coil wiring for #2 and #3 plugs will have
(1) +12v on the Yellow wire (hot with ignition on)
(2) pulsed to ground (+12v then ground) through a Yellow/White wire
(3) back to ECM (pin25)

The primary coil wiring for #1 and #43 plugs will have
(1) +12v on the Yellow wire (hot with ignition on)
(2) pulsed to ground (+12v then ground) through a Yellow/White wire
(3) back to ECM (pin52)

I'd check the resistance of both Yellow/White wires from the coils back to the ECM (pin 25 for one wire and pin 52 for the other wire)..The resistance MUST be very low (looks like when the meter wires are shorted together). A high resistance (above 3~4 ohms) would probably indicate a corroded connection somewhere along the wires path in the harness) causing a poor ground when the ECM fires the coil.
Now get to work and give us some results :-)
Dave
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#23 (permalink) Old 02-21-2013, 02:56 PM
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Default She's ALIVE

Well after months of trial and mostly error, she's alive. After checking for continuity from ECM to coil connector and coming up perfect, I noticed that the coils were not 1 & 4, and 2 & 3. Months ago when I bought new coils and wires and saw no difference I ended up returning them and using what I already had.

When I reconnected the coils and wires I didn't hook them up correctly.

Months after I found that the intake tube was in bad shape and had small rips all on the acordian style elbow. So there was in fact two problems, the leaky intake tube and a bad spark plug wire.

The wires are new and I have temporarily duct taped the intake tube.

I still show 4 codes using the ELMscan tool.

P300 - Random/multiple and #1 through #4 misfire
P301 - cylinder 1 misfire
P302 - cylinder 2 misfire
P1800 - Engine torque signal malfunction

The first three I'm thinking are due to this :





The coils must be arcing over to one another since there is no plastic to insulate each pin.

I bought a new pigtail harness to connect to the coils, new at kia, months ago when I first had the problem



So....Im gonna go to the auto parts store and buy some $200 coils install and see if I get codes. If the misfires go away to ebay where I found a new pair for $42.00

As far as the P1800 code KGIS says it either :

Related Items

Open between TCM (C221-41) and ECM (C254-68).

Short to B+ or GND between C221-41 and C254-68.

Has anyone Dealt with this, will search now for it on the forum.

Many, Many, thanks to everyone especially DavesSpectra, and Gottacruise. Would not have realized this without your help.
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#24 (permalink) Old 02-21-2013, 03:57 PM
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Sounds like my post may have helped sort out your problem with the 2&3 and 1&4 and coil inputs... Some double checking helped!
It's nice to know someone else in this world is also human and prone to "error".. :-)

Those are low voltage connections and unless the high voltage windings inside the coil packs are breaking down and arcing internally to those pins..they should be OK to use "as-is".. What's your current spark plug gap?? I know you have been trying everything and an incorrect gap may be your only problem..Early KIAs like a much smaller gap than sometimes suggested...Look for a lable under the hood with that info...
As far as the p1800 code is concerned check all plugs and sockets between the ECM and the TCM for corrosion or water damage (common in older KIAs also).
BTW Congrats! and hang in there...we need Sephia owners to help others...
Dave
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#25 (permalink) Old 02-21-2013, 04:00 PM
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How about a shot of both coil packs and the wiring for my "records" to help others.
Any labeling showing cylinder #s would help also..
Dave
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#26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2013, 06:00 PM
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Nicely done Dave -

TrickedKia, was glad to read you got the Sephia running, congrats!

--
re: Coil pack connectors, I'd try to find a way to secure the leads to the coil packs (maybe using some plastic zip ties to hold the lead connector -> wrapped around the diameter of the Coil Pack?) - that CP with just the leads sticking out concerns me: I'd be wary of the connector popping off w/o anything holding it to the coil pack.. Try to "MacGyver" a durable repair, or pickup those eBay coil packs..

re: the P1800 code, do what Dave suggested..

Happy Motoring!
GottaCruise

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#27 (permalink) Old 02-21-2013, 09:12 PM
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GottaCruise...
I'm overwelmed with todays successes..Especially for our new KIA friends.

First it was TrickedKia (You and I)

I helped one guy in N/C on the phone with his 08 Spectra TB tensioner..

Got another with an 06 Spectra that had a bad BCM/ETACS going showing him how to use a "donor" module and saving him at least $400~500 over what the dealer wanted to repair it...

and more in the fire...

The Best payment is not "money"... it's hearing the joy in peoples words when they "succeeded"

Thanks for being there also...WE did it!
Dave...
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#28 (permalink) Old 02-22-2013, 12:01 AM
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Default Done and Done!

Well guys, I gotta say I feel pretty foolish about how simple the problem was and how frustratingly long it took me to figure this out. But hey we live and we learn.

So, basically the only problem I ended up having was a cracked intake tube. I overlooked it for months. A lil duct tape and its good to go.

The other main reason I was having so much trouble besides the fact that I had the wires crossed was this; the spark plug wires I had were only 1 yr old and the reason I kept getting a misfire was because the wires tend to move around in the boot. It kept happening even with the brand new pair I bought yesterday.

For anyone with the Misfire Blues, remember this. Make 100% sure you hear that spark plug wire "click". If not its not connected.

What happened was when I would pull them off to check the spark plug I would end up pulling the wire up the boot a few cm's and when I went to put them back it wasnt snapping back onto the spark plug.

I figured they were on correctly even though I didnt hear the "click"

That is the most important thing I came to realize.

So the new wires and coils are all going back tomorrow.

I cleared the codes and cleaned the spark plugs with heat and a wire brush, got the old wires out of the trash and put some die-electric on them, made sure I heard the "click", and lo and behold, the car runs great, and with no codes. Not even the O2 sensor code because my cats are gutted , although Im sure it will pop up again when I go for a long cruise.

Thanks again to Gotta Cruise and Dave's Spectra. Let me know if you ever need anything, I owe you guys. You guys are life savers, and you dont even know it.

Here is the pic you asked for, let me know if you need any other pics with descriptions

The red arrow is pointing to main cause of my problem, the cracked intake elbow


Last edited by TrickedKia; 02-22-2013 at 12:10 AM. Reason: edit to picture
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#29 (permalink) Old 02-22-2013, 11:50 AM
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Thanks TrickedKia..
Your Sephia engine is quite different from my Spectras in design. The picture will allow me to help others in the future. I have it stored in my Sephia directory.
I'm glad it's running good again...
Dave
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#30 (permalink) Old 02-22-2013, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavesSpectra View Post
GottaCruise...
I'm overwelmed with todays successes..Especially for our new KIA friends.

First it was TrickedKia (You and I)

I helped one guy in N/C on the phone with his 08 Spectra TB tensioner..

Got another with an 06 Spectra that had a bad BCM/ETACS going showing him how to use a "donor" module and saving him at least $400~500 over what the dealer wanted to repair it...

and more in the fire...

The Best payment is not "money"... it's hearing the joy in peoples words when they "succeeded"

Thanks for being there also...WE did it!
Dave...
You HAVE had a productive week - quick.. go out and buy a lottery ticket, it's your week to win.

Always great to working w/ you to help out folks here on the forum also,

Have a great weekend,
GottaCruise

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