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#1 (permalink) Old 09-17-2010, 11:37 PM
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Default oil filter drain back/V6 engine noise

I just read the posts under"V6 engine noise" by truckerbear1. the 2011 3.5 V6 has the oil filter mounted upside down on top of the engine. i don't know if the anti drain back valve is not working or perhaps the the oil is draining down the center of the filter(where there is no valve), but all the oil is gone when ever the plastic cover is taken off the filter element(it is not a typical spin on oil filter). this means that on start up the oil pump has to fill the oil filter before oil is pressured to the crankshaft bearings or the valve train. this will let the rod bearings run dry and knock untill the oil filter is full. hyundi has used a 3.5 on previous 3.5 car models. is this the same engine with the upside oil filter as is in the 2011 sorento? are these older engines having bearing problems?
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#2 (permalink) Old 09-18-2010, 09:49 AM
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The center spindle that forms the filter core on these setups tapers down to a plug with a small o-ring on it. The plug fits inside the drain galley at the bottom of the sump housing. Properly installed with a fresh o-ring, the filter sump remains full of oil when the engine is not running and lubrication is immediately available when the engine is started. The sump doesn't drain until the spindle is pulled to replace the filter and o-ring. Problems arise from not replacing the o-ring or from forgetting to replace the o-ring when the old is removed.

The original Hyundai 3.5 liter V6 (codenamed Sigma) was derived from their Delta series 2.7 liter V6 engines developed in the mid-to-late 1990s. Both Delta and Sigma engines used spin-on canister type filters. The 3.5 liter Lambda II engine in the 2011 Sonreto is a completely different (and much better) design orignating with the 3.3/3.8 Lambda engines introduced in late 2005/early 2006. All Lambda engines use a cartridge filter.

I am not aware of any inherent problems with the engine bearings used in the Sigma engine other than any Sigma is going to be older and used which means its condition is dependent on the maintenance it has been exposed to during it's life. The Sigma design does use a timing belt with a 60,000 mile service interval. I would definitely ask about service records for any Sigma engined car I was thinking about buying.

Last edited by Ken99; 09-18-2010 at 10:09 AM.
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#3 (permalink) Old 09-18-2010, 03:46 PM
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This is the same type system that BMW, Mercedes and several other european manufacturers have been using for years. We owned a 330i (straight 6) and that engine is bullet proof. Too bad the rest of the cars parts and systems are so problematic. While i'm not crazy about this type of filter, it does have it's advantages in that you can change the filter without changing the oil (which is great if you are running synth oil with extended changes).
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#4 (permalink) Old 09-18-2010, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken99 View Post
The center spindle that forms the filter core on these setups tapers down to a plug with a small o-ring on it. The plug fits inside the drain galley at the bottom of the sump housing. Properly installed with a fresh o-ring, the filter sump remains full of oil when the engine is not running and lubrication is immediately available when the engine is started. The sump doesn't drain until the spindle is pulled to replace the filter and o-ring. Problems arise from not replacing the o-ring or from forgetting to replace the o-ring when the old is removed.

The original Hyundai 3.5 liter V6 (codenamed Sigma) was derived from their Delta series 2.7 liter V6 engines developed in the mid-to-late 1990s. Both Delta and Sigma engines used spin-on canister type filters. The 3.5 liter Lambda II engine in the 2011 Sonreto is a completely different (and much better) design orignating with the 3.3/3.8 Lambda engines introduced in late 2005/early 2006. All Lambda engines use a cartridge filter.

I am not aware of any inherent problems with the engine bearings used in the Sigma engine other than any Sigma is going to be older and used which means its condition is dependent on the maintenance it has been exposed to during it's life. The Sigma design does use a timing belt with a 60,000 mile service interval. I would definitely ask about service records for any Sigma engined car I was thinking about buying.
Yup My 2004 3.5L V6 with spin-on filter and the 3.8/3.3/3.5L V6's with cartridge filters are two totally different animals for sure. Drain back should not be an issue in one with a fuctioning oil filter houseing. As oil stays in it till and even after cap is removed. Once the filter is moved slightly and the o-ring seal breaks seal it drains then. There are NO dry starts as he suggests other then after a filter change if you do not put oil in (prime it) houseing before capping it. The orings must be seated perfect for this to happen too. The only reason is for someone to have dry start is a bad drain valve (a warrenty issue) or bad filter/o-ring or uses a cheap crap filter with not correct, thou look like they are o-rings. And a proper seal is never made till lower o-ring is squished wrongly in bottom of houseing.
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#5 (permalink) Old 09-18-2010, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by samuel wells View Post
I just read the posts under"V6 engine noise" by truckerbear1. the 2011 3.5 V6 has the oil filter mounted upside down on top of the engine. i don't know if the anti drain back valve is not working or perhaps the the oil is draining down the center of the filter(where there is no valve), but all the oil is gone when ever the plastic cover is taken off the filter element(it is not a typical spin on oil filter). this means that on start up the oil pump has to fill the oil filter before oil is pressured to the crankshaft bearings or the valve train. this will let the rod bearings run dry and knock untill the oil filter is full. hyundi has used a 3.5 on previous 3.5 car models. is this the same engine with the upside oil filter as is in the 2011 sorento? are these older engines having bearing problems?
Not sure if you read the rest of the post under the V6 engine noise post but this is a normal condition and will not casue engine damge, period. The noise that is heard is not a engine knock it is simply a little lifter noise. Once again nothing to worry about!!

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#6 (permalink) Old 09-18-2010, 11:48 PM
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Hi, this is sam from the origional post. there have been some interesting posts on this subject. first of all, at this time you cannot not buy an oil filter for the 2011 kia sorento 3.5 engine except from the kia dealer. the kia # is 26320-3caao (L26127 purolator but no parts place could get it) when i removed the plastic oil filter cover the first time after an over night sit, no oil spilled and there was no oil in the lower half of the housing. i could tell the oil had not just drained as i loosened the cover. if there had been oil , it would have run out over the top of the engine. the new oil filter had a new small o ring on bottom of a small anti drain back valve, a new large o ring to be put on the top plastic cover,and a new metal gasket for the pan drain plug. the housing and filter was dry the second time i changed the oil and filter. my conclusion stands: On this sorento 3.5 engine the oil pump has to pump the oil filter housing full before the crankshaft bearings and the valvetrain get oil pressure.
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#7 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by samuel wells View Post
Hi, this is sam from the origional post. there have been some interesting posts on this subject. first of all, at this time you cannot not buy an oil filter for the 2011 kia sorento 3.5 engine except from the kia dealer. the kia # is 26320-3caao (L26127 purolator but no parts place could get it) when i removed the plastic oil filter cover the first time after an over night sit, no oil spilled and there was no oil in the lower half of the housing. i could tell the oil had not just drained as i loosened the cover. if there had been oil , it would have run out over the top of the engine. the new oil filter had a new small o ring on bottom of a small anti drain back valve, a new large o ring to be put on the top plastic cover,and a new metal gasket for the pan drain plug. the housing and filter was dry the second time i changed the oil and filter. my conclusion stands: On this sorento 3.5 engine the oil pump has to pump the oil filter housing full before the crankshaft bearings and the valvetrain get oil pressure.
Sam I think you are reading way to deep into the technical aspect of the design of this engine and how it functions. For starters I have not seen one of these canister not have some oil in them, your right they will not be plum full of oil. But neither are they on any other vehicle with this set up. Mercedes E320 comes to mind. So this is not a new design that KIA or hyundai came up with. Other manufacturers have used and are using this same design with no issues. I would imagine that the oil filter being in top of the engine as it is has some advantages besides being easy to get to. I wish I could give you some technical info to show that what you believe is wrong. Just think about it for a minute, KIA and Hyundai have been using this design since 2006. Would you not think that they would have some major issue's with engine failures. I would not think that they would offer a 10year,100,000 mile warranty on their engines if they had this type of design flaw. The only information that I ever heard from KIA about the oiling system is that it was superior to conventional designs. I wish I had the oppurtunity to go to a class but unfortunatly I did not.

As far as your issue with having to buy a filter through KIA that is not that uncommon for a new vehicle. Most aftermarket manufacturers will not start producing parts like that untill there is a demand. Eventually you will see aftermarket filters. I am not sure why you would go after market though. I have seen filters that did not fit right so they did not seal properly inside the canister which causes a lose of oil pressure. When I worked for Hyundai we had a Santa fe come in and it was knocking. We checked to make sure the small o ring at the bottom of the filter had been replaced when we found that the oil filter was aftermarket. We replaced it with a Hyundai one and knocking disappeared. If that engine had been damaged Hyundai would not pay for it. KIA will not either. Ethier way that is your call (I still use a factory filter on my 94 Ford ranger - I always will) Guess I am a believe in OEM parts.
By the way you may have issues finding any parts after market for that vehicle

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Last edited by autoservice; 09-19-2010 at 01:09 AM.
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#8 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 10:01 AM
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It will be nice when Trans-Dapt comes out with the adapter for a remote filter. You can then install the filter right side up and keep it filled with oil. Or install a larger one for more capacity. Good luck on the problem.
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#9 (permalink) Old 09-19-2010, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by samuel wells View Post
Hi, this is sam from the origional post. there have been some interesting posts on this subject. first of all, at this time you cannot not buy an oil filter for the 2011 kia sorento 3.5 engine except from the kia dealer. the kia # is 26320-3caao
Not true. Every Hyundai dealer in the country carries the 26320-3CAAO filter kit. You can even buy them online if you looking to save money.

Quote:
(L26127 purolator but no parts place could get it) when i removed the plastic oil filter cover the first time after an over night sit, no oil spilled and there was no oil in the lower half of the housing. i could tell the oil had not just drained as i loosened the cover. if there had been oil , it would have run out over the top of the engine. the new oil filter had a new small o ring on bottom of a small anti drain back valve, a new large o ring to be put on the top plastic cover,and a new metal gasket for the pan drain plug. the housing and filter was dry the second time i changed the oil and filter.
The bottom plug releases before you are finished unscrewing the top cap. You'll never see a sump full of oil when removing the filter.

Quote:
my conclusion stands: On this sorento 3.5 engine the oil pump has to pump the oil filter housing full before the crankshaft bearings and the valvetrain get oil pressure.
Like 04SorentoLX said, you'll only have a momentary dry start when you've replaced the filter during an oil change. This is true, to some extent, for any motor with a new filter installed.
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#10 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 07:53 PM
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Default 2003 sorento oil filter

I have a 2003 sorento with the V6 and if my car sat for a couple days it would make all kinds of noise when started until the oil got to the lifters. After 3 trips to the dealer in Florida and they said everything was fine. When I got to Michigan the dealer here said it was normal. I then talked to one of the service guys at the dealer and he told me it was because I was not using a KIA brand filter. He said the KIA brand filters have a small check valve in them and do not let all the oil drain out while sitting. I changed my oil and put a KIA filter on it and BINGO no more noise when starting! Also if anyone has a bad clock in a sorento that is a easy fix! just unplug the clock bend the plug blades just a little and put it back together. After 2 clocks I tried it and it has never went out since. The dealer unplugs them and checks the lead wires if there is power they assume the clock is bad, they never hook it back up to see if it works so everyone thinks the clock is bad. It really isn't just the plug gets messed up a little.
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