Misfire cylinder 5; Kia given up - Kia Forum
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#1 (permalink) Old 11-03-2010, 07:34 AM
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Default Misfire cylinder 5; Kia given up

This has baffled Kia and they have gievn up so I would really appreciate some advice.

Once the car has warmed up a bit from a cold start it misfires on cylinder 5.
Occasionaly its like it from cold too.
The short trim value on bank 1 is running at around 24 and the -5 on bank 2 whilse running on tickover.

The kia dealers have had it 3 days and they are satisifed the plugs and coils are fine.
I'm conviced with the trim readings its a mixture problem (I assumed the car is sucking air)but kia can't find a any air leaks.

Last night I showed the kia dealer the post from pistonboke about butterfly valves. Kia disconnected the actuator first thing this morning while the car was cold and it started and ran fine (the mechanic said it ran beautifully, a really nice engine) for a few minutes but on test drvie it wnet back to the constant misfire on 5 again so i have no idea if the butterfly's are part of the problem or a red herring.

The kia dealer has seeked advice fro m kia uk but as the dealer said, he felt they were dismissive of the trim values and kept suggesting that the compression and plugs must be to blame. They also say it could be low compression but again the mechanic says not and if it was how did it manage to run so well earlier? He also checked the compression on cylinder 5 and 1; both were a little low but the same so at worst it should be a little under powered but not misfireing. Personally I don't think it is suffering any loss of power and think this is definately a red herring.

Neither the dealers mechanics or me think any of they are the cause.

Kia's prinout for the trim values stated possible causes of
air leak
fuel problems, lack of pressure or blockage etc
ECM

The car runs ecxactly as badly on LPG as it does on petrol so I think its doubtful its a fuel problem.
Is the ECM testable? I assume they cost a fortune.

Has anyone got any ideas as right now i have an undriveable sorento with only 20,000 miles on the clock an kia saying "don't know"
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#2 (permalink) Old 11-03-2010, 09:13 AM
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to detect air leak - spray some easy-starter all around the air intake ducts. It would suck the fumes in and RPM would increase. Easy test...

as for compression - it would misfire... did they check ALL cylinders or only those two? to get a good answer you must know all of them!

tell me what exhaust look like? any chance problem with head gasket? small leak of fluid would cause such problems (constant misfiring).

did you ever replace spark plugs? if not - do so. also, check the cables (at night) to look for any "spark leak". Cars with LPG need spark plugs to be changed much more often. If you do not want to invest in them - swap them around.

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#3 (permalink) Old 11-03-2010, 11:05 AM
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Make sure the spark plugs are NGK and not Champion or Bocsh.. Champions in particular cause some engine to backfires.

I had this issue in a previous car that drove me crazy even though I was using the original ones from the dealers. The problem ended when I replaced them with standard NGK Plugs
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#4 (permalink) Old 11-03-2010, 11:33 AM
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Compression; they have tested cylinder with nthe misfire and compared it to another, 1 i think and got identical readings. The misfire is only ever on cylinder 5, so I and the mechanic think its unlikley to be problem especially as when the misfire isn't happening it runs like new.
It never backfires just misfires.
They've done the air leak test with starter spray and the £8k worth of smoke euipment he told me about and found nothing. He also said they have done a pressure test and found nothing.
Spark plugs are fine; changed about 2k miles ago and the car ran fine until 2 weeks ago; they have also swapped the plugs around and the misfire stays on cylinder 5.
I'm not sure if they have checked the HT leads so I will check with them.
Exhaust i can't comment on as the cars in the garage still.
Head gasket, i'm pretty sure they said they had ruled that out too, but i will check.

following on from the butterfly valve issue; does anyone know if that could be causing the misfire if they had broken away?
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#5 (permalink) Old 11-03-2010, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by vinny2984 View Post
following on from the butterfly valve issue; does anyone know if that could be causing the misfire if they had broken away?
It would cause a major damage to engine...

what kind of LPG system do you have? Is it injection or the old type - a piece of gas distributor over air intake?

there is a way to check what is the problem, at least narrow it down.

If there is too much petrol (too rich mixture), the spark plug would be wet, and would smell with petrol.

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#6 (permalink) Old 11-03-2010, 01:17 PM
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The LPG is a sequential injection type, but the problem is on petrol too.

The short trim reading sugest bank 1 is is running very lean and the dealer says that the plugs were definately dry.

I have just got off phone to dealer who has been speaking to kia uk technical;
they have suggested that first they do a resistance test on HT leads and if they are ok they remove the head as they say the LPG converison has probably damaged the valves and caused a huge drop in compression. I don't believe the latter at all, the car drives excellent with shed loads of power when the misfire isn't present. I do a fair bit of towing and its great.
HT leads is a possible but surely that doesn't explain trim readings on idle;
Short bank 1 24
Short bank 2 -5
Longs for both were close to 0 so i idn't take much notice.

If i throttle it up the short trim 1 reduces and on a cruise at around 60mph on flat ground with around 2100rpm the short trim 1 would be about 15
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#7 (permalink) Old 11-03-2010, 01:39 PM
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I know that it was happening in petrol, but wanted to know if by a chance the LPG is not "the old system" where we skip injectors.
did they play with injectors? like swapping them... most of the time they would get damaged opposite way (they would put more gas then needed, but...).

If the system is lean on one of the cylinders - injector would not put enough fuel. Any fuel pressure test? Does the misfire disappear at any point? like heavy load, or high rpm? what happens if you spray the starter to the air ducts? does it get better? if lean - extra fuel would make it run smooth.

I doubt valve issue... if compression is right.

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#8 (permalink) Old 11-04-2010, 07:29 AM
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Latest from dealer;
all cylinders have been pressure tested and are fine.
HT leads have also passed resistance test.

They have now been instructed by kia uk to remove head but i have no idea what they are looking for. But at least kia uk are gettting involved now.

I don@t think they have looked at injectors yet but i assume they will now they are stripping it down.

The first time this misfire occured it was during a drive along a motorway. It was constant for the rest of that journey. But when I went to drive the car again a few hours later it was totally gone. The following day from cold start it was fine for about 5 mins or 1.5 miles then it satrted misfireing and was constant.
Since then it has followed that pattern of ok when cold and missing when nearly full temp. But the garage says that it has been starting cold with misfire on last couple of days.

If I give it a bootfull of throttle it stops missing for a few seconds. This is how i drove it to the dealer on the motorway; by giving it big throtttle to kick down and build up spedd and then ease right off the lessen the effects of the misfire, then boot it up again, etc
This all says to me its running to lean, but what is causing it is still unknown?

The rest of the questions I can't answer now its being stripped down.
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#9 (permalink) Old 11-04-2010, 09:13 AM
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so if you pump it and it acts OK, I would still got to fuel and before removing head, I would rather test injectors and gas/petrol pressure, although I would rather think about some obstruction in the fuel line just before injector since both are affected.

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#10 (permalink) Old 11-09-2010, 02:31 PM
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Default Kia given up but still charging

The latest from dealer;
On the advice of Kia Uk they have not removed the head.
They removed the inlet manifold and checked it out. They say they have tihtened up some bits (I think they were reffering to butterflys) and put it back together.
They said when they first started it it ran great and than started missing again. They say it is now missing worse than it worse before.
But here's the bit I really can't understand; the misfire is now on cylinder 1 not cylinder 5 as it has always been up til now.
Surely it can't be fuel, or injectors now, can it?

I'm picking it up tomorrow running worse than when i took it in 8 days ago, and guess what; they are charging me for not achieveing anything.

Anyway, once I've driven it home, I'll be able to describe better how it's behaving and i'll get the trim readings too.
Now that Kia have washed there hands of it, I'm not really sure where to go next.
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