2.4L balance shaft on oil pump sprocket - Kia Forum
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#1 (permalink) Old 05-06-2011, 10:31 AM
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Default 2.4L balance shaft on oil pump sprocket

Found some great info on the forum on replacing timing belt but I am hoping someone with experience can answer my question. So if the oil pump sprocket/RH balance shaft has a timing mark on it, one would think it is keyed or pinned to the balance shaft. Why go thru the procedure of using the screwdriver to properly align the balance shaft to the sprocket? Pop it on the shaft and align marks and your good right? Reason I'm asking is cause I'm working on a friends Optima and it looks like it jumped 2 teeth or cogs on the belt. The procedure of using the screwdriver to locate the balance shaft has me confused. If I just rotate the sprocket 2 teeth to align marks and install the big timing belt is there any way that the oil pump sprocket can be misaligned with the front balance shaft.
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#2 (permalink) Old 05-06-2011, 11:37 AM
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crankcase...
Please be careful or you just might loose a friend...
Depending on the year of the Optima the engine may be an "interference" type engine..
Not knowing your skills or if you have worked on a KIA before. A bad belt can spell BIG problems... If you don't know what I'm saying PLEASE read up BEFORE attacking this car. You can DESTROY this car's engine in under 15 seconds if you do it wrong!
The procedures outlined by KIA are there because they work. If you don't know ASK .
Timing belts just don't jump two teeth... they do that because they are bad. KIA states they must be replaced every 60k miles for good reasons. If that belt "slips" or breaks MAJOR damage can/will occur.
Dave
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#3 (permalink) Old 05-06-2011, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DavesSpectra View Post
crankcase...
Please be careful or you just might loose a friend...
Depending on the year of the Optima the engine may be an "interference" type engine..
Not knowing your skills or if you have worked on a KIA before. A bad belt can spell BIG problems... If you don't know what I'm saying PLEASE read up BEFORE attacking this car. You can DESTROY this car's engine in under 15 seconds if you do it wrong!
The procedures outlined by KIA are there because they work. If you don't know ASK .
Timing belts just don't jump two teeth... they do that because they are bad. KIA states they must be replaced every 60k miles for good reasons. If that belt "slips" or breaks MAJOR damage can/will occur.
Dave
Thanks Dave that's exactly why I'm doing my reasearch first. I work on my own cars however this is my first Kia. I'll post a little more info on my situation:

This is my Son's girlfriends car. she was driving it and it stranded her. Car was towed home and towing co scanned it. Scanner showed a crank position sensor code. Son and gf started it a few days later and it worked ok, but he asked me about it and I told them to let it sit to see if this is a DIY repair. From what I've read these things go thru CAS sensors. Not knowing what's involved I discovered this forum. I learned what was involved and I told my son to start in on the disassembly started taking off the timing belt cover. Thats when he saw the condition of the timing belt, with teeth missing and ready to go at any time. Way overdue for that to be changed so I will do it. Lucky her to say the least. So I rotated the motor to TDC and intake exhaust and crank all line up, however the oil pump sprocket/ balancer mark appears that it would need to be rotated 2 cogs CW for the timing mark to align with the mark on the case. The small balancer belt is in good shape and tensioned so I didn't look at that any further.

Now according to the owner, it has run rough for some time.

My train of thought is this: If I rotate the oil pump sprocket 2 cogs CW to align timing marks I should be OK however I want to be sure. Now reading through the procedure on the screwdriver with the sprocket it has me wondering why Kia would have a timing mark on the oil pump sprocket of it wasn't keyed to the balancer shaft. One would think that a marked sprocket could only go on the shaft in one orentation. Unless it's internally geared as not to spin 1:1 with the sprocket. If it's not keyed and with the picture on Kia's procedure, there could in fact be 15°-20° of rotation where the screwdriver would still pass thru the slot. And that doesn't seem like a of precise way of locating something as important as a counter balance in this engine. That could equate potentially to 2 or 3 cogs off. But then they include a timing mark on the sprocket which is a very precise way to measure angular rotation

Depending on how you look at things, I'm lucky to be the first one to have done any service work on this engine. With 3 adjacent cogs in a row missing and a relatively small wrap around the oil pump sprocket leads me to believe that it did jump.

Sorry for rambling, does this make sense?

Last edited by crankcase; 05-06-2011 at 01:08 PM. Reason: typo
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#4 (permalink) Old 05-06-2011, 02:18 PM
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They want you to use a screwdriver to make sure it is aligned because the balance shaft IS NOT directly driven by the timing belt. Yes, the pulley is driven by the belt, but the shaft is driven by a gearset inside, and it is gear reduced. Just because the marks are lined up doesn't mean the shaft is in time. the shaft can be in 1 of 3 different positions when the marks are aligned. The only 100% sure way to tell is the screwdriver method.
When I bought my 2004 Optima last year it had 100k on it. The belt was also missing teeth. I aligned everything with the new belt and started is up. Vibrating like crazy in 1500 RPM increments (1500,3000,4500). I did the whole procedure over again, this time I used the screwdriver method and it came out great.
You may not have to, but I removed the exhaust manifold and exhaust mounting bracket to access the plug. Don't forget to change the secondary balance shaft belt while you're in there.

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#5 (permalink) Old 05-06-2011, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mattybyzf View Post
They want you to use a screwdriver to make sure it is aligned because the balance shaft IS NOT directly driven by the timing belt. Yes, the pulley is driven by the belt, but the shaft is driven by a gearset inside, and it is gear reduced. Just because the marks are lined up doesn't mean the shaft is in time. the shaft can be in 1 of 3 different positions when the marks are aligned. The only 100% sure way to tell is the screwdriver method.
When I bought my 2004 Optima last year it had 100k on it. The belt was also missing teeth. I aligned everything with the new belt and started is up. Vibrating like crazy in 1500 RPM increments (1500,3000,4500). I did the whole procedure over again, this time I used the screwdriver method and it came out great.
You may not have to, but I removed the exhaust manifold and exhaust mounting bracket to access the plug. Don't forget to change the secondary balance shaft belt while you're in there.

Matty, was your belt still in one piece when you took it apart? I don't understand how it could be that far off if someone was to turn the motor by hand to TDC and align the marks before the belt is removed. I only see this screwdriver method needed if the engine was completely tore down or the belt broke, but then a guy has bigger problems. Thanks for your explanation of the reduction inside. This was the first that I heard of the vibrations. So I don't think that they were that bad off like you had. More of a nusance rather than a problem to her at least. This leads me to believe that it's close as in my case 1 or 2 cogs, and that would make all my timing maarks line up. I will verify with my trusty phillips.
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#6 (permalink) Old 05-06-2011, 03:48 PM
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Yeah, it was still in one piece, but I did have several teeth missing from one spot. I seem to remember the balance shaft pulley being smaller diameter than the timing sprocket on the crank, so if enough teeth are missing it is possible for the balance pulley slip but not the crank.

Someone once told me that you can "feel" if it is lined up properly. They said that if you line up the mark by hand, on 3 seperate revolutions, that the marks only want to stay aligned in one of those revolutions. On the other two revolutions that don't seem to want to stay in place, the heavy part of the shaft must be up higher, and falls to it's resting position on the bottom. If that makes sense.

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#7 (permalink) Old 05-06-2011, 04:38 PM
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Like mattybyzf said, there is a much easier way to align the balance shaft. No tools are required, you basically just need to feel how it spins and where it settles. The timing mark on the sprocket needs to come to rest right near the mark on the block. Just spin the sprocket enough feel how it is "weighted". Hard to explain, but it works, and I've never used a screwdriver to line one up.
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#8 (permalink) Old 05-06-2011, 04:45 PM
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Thanks for all the advice, I appreciate the help. I'm off right now to work on it. I will post updates on how it goes.
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#9 (permalink) Old 05-07-2011, 09:49 AM
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Got her done. Piece of cake "feeling" where the balance shaft alingment should be in relation to one of the 3 alingment possibilities. It was where I expected it to be since it was running before.

So for routine maintenance of changing the timing belt on a smooth running motor, just align timing marks at TDC. Don't spin anything so you can return to the same point. If for any reason you loose track of the oil pump sprocket and /or it makes 1 complete revolution or you think it may have before you get the new belt on. then you need to use the alingment plug cause you "lost it"

Don't be a looser, loosing it is bad. You make more work for yourself. But if you are a looser or run into one, you can be a wiener with a screwdriver.

And now for some bananas
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#10 (permalink) Old 05-13-2014, 04:54 PM
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I ran into this same problem. Especially since the haynes books do not give a real picture of the location of the plug but just a very vague drawing. Anyways theres a "gravity trick" that you can do with the balance shaft/oil pump gear that will identify whether your balance shaft is correctly position with the oil pump and thus the rest of your timing components. Being the balance shaft/oil pump is a 3:1 reduction gear lining the mark on the balance shaft gear with its mark on the engine can leave your oil pump gear in 1 of 3 possibilities of which 2 are incorrect. The trick is turning the balance shaft gear around a cpl times and letting it free fall into position. It will naturally because the balance weight want to fall into one of the positions. Continue this process until it falls in the position lined up with the mark on the engine and there you have it. Its correctly set. You still should check by the plug to be safe. Its on the side of the engine behind the exuast manifold right at the front of the vehicle.
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