Warm re-start issue, excessive cranking

[Sweet Sephia]

Hello,

I have a 1999 kia sportage 5 sp. 122K that sat for about four years in a field. I have worked all of the bugs out but one and it is driving me crazy. It cranks excessively only after it sits for about a half an hour after being fully warmed up.
The past couple mornings it has been in the single digits and it starts fine, five minutes after it sits it starts fine, the only problem is when it sits for about a half an hour, it takes about ten seconds of straight cranking to fire up. If you let off the key after about five seconds and come right back at it quickly, it will fire right up. After it starts, it runs great, lots of power, it you shut it off right after it just took ten seconds to start, it will start right up perfect.

So far I have swapped out the two relays under the hood from ones I found at the junk yard will no change in performance. I checked the voltage to that maf to see if it was full battery voltage and it was. I cleaned the ground by the battery and the fuel pump itself. The engine has new coils, plugs and wires. I have swapped out the water temp sensor with one from the junk yard because I was getting readings averaging 185 from my reader. Both sensors read the same, low, I don't understand, maybe it is my reader. I put a new super stant thermostat (195) in. Fuel filter was replaced a couple days ago. No check engine light. I ran some lucas fuel injector cleaner and some dry gas through the system.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[wolf_7669]

Sounds like the starting issues I was having. The cause of mine ended up being the Main and Fuel Pump relays. Since you got your replacements from a yard, those could be bad too. These relays are known to go bad when they get old, so I'd try a set of new ones. RockAuto Parts Catalog sells the current version of the OEM relays for $8 each. They are the yellow ones.

[GottaCruise]

+1 to Wolf's idea on replacing both relays with new,

and would recommend checking the Air Intake Temp (AIT) sensor, located on the top cover of the airbox (over the air filter) - this sensor can also degrade -> fail w/ age & affect fuel delivery by the ECM -> starting... I'd keep an eye on what it is reporting via ECM, and if the numbers look suspect, consider replacing this sensor as well.

re: 185 reported by ECM vs. 195 degree thermostat: I would not be too concerned over this, even if you live in a temperate climate: the Sporty has a very good cooling system, 183 - 187 is what I usually average here, both in summer and winter months, when warmed to normal operating temp.

( Only climbs above 190 degrees on ECM reported temp. under extended load or on very hot days (90+) when using A/C here, sitting parked running, or in line at Taco Bell..

Regards,
GottaCruise

[Sweet Sephia]

Thanks for the info guys

Today after I posted the first post I went to advance auto parts to get a new pair of relays. When I put them both in it would not start. I narrowed it down to the one on the passenger side not accepting the new relay. When I left the key on and installed the relay, it clicks but will not start. When I put one from the boneyard in, it clicks and then hums from somewhere. I thought maybe that the contacts could be a little thinner than the ones I pulled out so I used some needle nose pliers to close up the connectors a little to ensure a good contact, no change. So currently I am running one new one on the driver side, and one old one on the passenger side. This does not make any sense. The new ones are BWD, yellow, and say made in Korea.

Then on my way to school for my night class, the check engine light comes on. I had my code reader handy so I checked for the code, came up po135, for the oxygen sensor heater curcuit. If my understanding is correct, this is to heat the element up quicker so the system can change from relying on the maf, to using the oxygen sensor and does not affect driveability.

Then, on my way home from school (cleared the codes in the school parking lot), it was running great, started good because it was a three hour class and it sat for a while. Then when I went to get on the highway, the engine would not go above about 3250 on the tach, I didn't think I was going to make it home. I got off at the next exit and wanted to see if I could "clear it out." I started off in first and held it to the floor, the tach stayed just above three grand for as long as I let it. Then the check engine light started flashing. I pulled over to check the codes and I got a 135 and 141, both heater circuits.

After I got home, I decided to give it another try, it took off up the road great with a lot of power and I was able to wind it up to about three and a half no problem. Then it died on me a couple of times like the fuel pump was failing. After the engine would shut off, it will immediately start up again.

This thing does not make any sense. Maybe I am losing a shared ground? I will look at the schematics on the kia tech info website

[GottaCruise]

Those codes are because the O2 heater circuits are not working, which means the Fuel Pump Relay is not the correct relay, faulty, or the wiring has an issue ..

Wolf's relay thread w/ link to vendor:

http://www.kia-forums.com/1g-1994-20...tml#post446186

Another relay thread:

http://www.kia-forums.com/1g-1994-20...-starting.html

Pics w/ diagram of correct (dual make) relay (thanks galf),

http://www.kia-forums.com/1g-1994-20...running-3.html

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All above said, it sounds like when you replaced the Fuel Pump relay, the ignition key was on - that may have caused the ECM to throw codes for the O2 heater circuit: if your scanner can reset codes, I would do so, otherwise with engine off / key out, I would disconnect the negative battery cable, turn on the headlights to drain all power from circuit, wait a minute, turn off headlights, and reconnect the neg. battery cable to reset the ECM,

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When installing relays / fuses, I would recommend disconnecting battery, engine off / key out as above to avoid any electrical issues (there should be no power supplied to the circuit when changing the relay(s)..

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If after making sure the corrrect relays are installed you are still having issues, post back, we'll try to help ..

Regards,
GottaCruise

[Sweet Sephia]

Thank you for all of the great information. This morning, I pulled out the new relay (BWD yellow) and installed the original and reset the computer. Made it all the way to and from school, half hour each way, no problems, no light. My relays do not look like the ones in the pictures. I noticed one other thing. When I came out of class and it would not start, after about two seconds of cranking I let off the key and immediately went right back after it, started instantly, from past experience the only things that change that fast are electrical. I will be returning the relays to advance. I will first take the oem relays to my brother to look at, he is a electrical engineer raymonds, the forklift people. He said he will inspect and clean the contacts. If this does not work, I will order them from rock auto, really like their business. Just an interesting note: I tested the coil resistance on a quality meter, on the new ones and the old ones, on the new ones 100.5 ohms, on the old ones 66.3 and 65.1, not sure of the significance, but a clear difference. I will continue to investigate the relays and post back, thanks again you guys have all been a very big help!

Also, when i compared the schematics of the two, they are different Doh! The BWD has an 87 and 87a, the oem has two 87's, when I got playing around with the ohm meter, I noticed they are absolutely not the right ones as they did not match in many areas, its hard to say exactly what I did without writing a book. It makes me wonder how they could sell replacement relays that are clearly not the same.

[GottaCruise]

Glad to hear the info helped, and your Sporty is not throwing codes now -

re: wrong relays - yes, unfortunately the Sporty relays are not the "common" relays that are stocked, so it is important to match any replacement relays to that diagram Galf posted / to make sure the replacement relays match the schematic / for 'dual make' relays..

I would absolutely try cleaning & refurb'ing the relays first, but will also caution if you have any further problems after cleaning, plan on replacing both relays:

from the many posts here / what others have posted / from what I have learned, the relays installed in our Sportys are a low life-cycle count (50,000 cycles rated) spec., which is entirely possible to reach on our vehicles, without taking into account any other electrical (poor grounding, etc) issues which would further reduce the life of the relay.

Thanks for posting your findings - great diagnostics on your part, congrats on the fix.

Regards,
GottaCruise

[aquanaut20]

NOTE:
After the contacts are refurbished, make sure the air gap is flushed with CRC cleaner and adjusted for positive contact when energized.. This will reduce the arcing and contaminate build-up..

I posted a "how to" some time ago.... Philip

[wolf_7669]

Originally Posted by Sweet Sephia

When I came out of class and it would not start, after about two seconds of cranking I let off the key and immediately went right back after it, started instantly

That's exactly what would happen to me when my relays started to go. Mine looked in good condition when I popped the covers off and cleaned the contacts, but they must have developed an intermittent open in the coil or something because cleaning didn't help.

[DavesSpectra]

I have heard nothing but good about the relays from rockauto.com. The comments were that they were the exact same ones as original and came from Korea... Maybe you should order a couple like was suggested in this thread.
The higher resistance of about 1/3 would reduce the current flow through the coil by 1/3 also which would reduce the magnetic field that pulls the the contacts in also...Sounds like the ones you got were totally wrong...Nothing unusual for Autozone and Advance...They look at a book for "Knowledge" and make recomendations based upon that "book"...It's not uncommon that the book is/was wrong...Rock has a research team that comes up with better parts and references.
Dave