Warm re-start issue, excessive cranking

[Sweet Sephia]

Update,

Thanks again for all of the great information, it has been a few days since I have looked at the thread. I had to take the sportage off the road because of the random issues, with these snowy roads in upstate NY, I don't feel it is safe to have a vehicle randomly shut off while driving down the road as it has been lately.

My brother cleaned, inspected and tested the relays and said they looked good, they can't be though. Bench testing with a perfect power supply is a lot different than actual use, the way they are now they still work 99% of the time. Based on all of the great information and feedback from everybody I feel confident they are the source of my issues.

Update on Rock Auto relays: They are the same ones that I got from advance auto branded as BWD. I ordered SMP #RY752, when I opened the package I was shocked to find this out. I looked at the schematics they are like the standard relay, contacts 87 and 87a, not two 87 posts to carry current when the coil is energized like the ones pictured in
http://www.kia-forums.com/1g-1994-20...running-3.html

I will be ordering from the dealer today and let everybody know how I make out.

Thanks again

[Sweet Sephia]

Well, I finally got the relays from the KIA dealer. Put them in, it ran great great, but after it sat for about a half an hour. When I went to start it I let it crank for about three seconds and then stopped. I went right back after it and it fired right up on the first rotation, just like when it is cold. I am out of ideas. Any thoughts on this

[Sweet Sephia]

I have been doing a little research, does anybody think that this could be an ignition module on it's way out? I really think it is electrical based on the fact that it goes from a crank and no start condition to starting perfect in a fraction of a second, I know electronics do funny things and are affected by temperature in odd ways at times? Any thoughts on that?

[GottaCruise]

Sorry to hear you are still having trouble after the relay replacement.

If it's not fuel, then it is electrical (wiring or sensor) related..

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To complete the electrical Q/A, I'd like to see you clean the battery ground tray bolts, if present: remove the battery, lift the plastic tray, there should be (3) or (4) bolts securing the ground tray to the frame - clean the bolt threads, and replace the bolts with (new) hardware if badly rusted,

And also inspect the ground tray <-> motor ground strap (wire) rings: any corrosion where the wiring goes into the rings, etc., consider fabricating a replacement ground strap,

Use fine-grit (200-400) sandpaper to clean up the rings and mating surfaces, use some dielectric grease ('connection protector', 99 cents for a blister pack at Advance Auto or AutoZone..)

I'd also like to see you inspect and cleanup ground points G200 and G201 - behind Driver's side kick panel, below pass. cabin fuse box, behind Pass. side kick panel, bolted to side frame..

This way we know you have good ground points (and grounding) to motor, frame, ignition, and ECM, and you have replaced the relays, so power should be good to the sensors -> items powered further down the line..

Also, please confirm the O2 sensor codes have cleared / are no longer appearing w/ the new correct relays installed,

Thanks,
GottaCruise

[Sweet Sephia]

Thanks you for quick, concise, and detailed information! I didn't even think about the other grounds besides the obvious, I cleaned where the cable bolts to the battery tray and the other end where it hooks to the motor. I didn't even think of the tray to body connection or the direct computer grounds. I will give this a shot and report. Thank you very much.

[GottaCruise]

You're welcome, and hang in there -

Do not be surprised if after cleaning up everything there is little/no improvement, I'm hoping there is, but if not, it is to be expected - your Sporty sat for a long time, getting this Q/A maintenance done is necessary, and important to further testing down the line. (The tests indicated at kiatechinfo.com are based on grounding and power supplied to components being in good condition)

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After cleaning, take voltage readings:

1. Direct Battery,
2. Battery Pos. + to frame ground,
3. Battery Pos. + to engine ground,
4. Pass. Cabin fuse + (use power door lock fuse) to frame ground,
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All readings should be within .1 - .5 volt of each other (not deviate more than 1/2 volt).

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You suspect ignition coil - next basic check would be checking positive (+) voltage at the coil pack lead, and engine ground (-), that should be close or at ( battery voltage..

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If it was my Sporty, I would be (and have done) the above, next checks would be checking condition of spark plug wells: any oil inside, the valve cover gasket needs to be replaced / resistance checks on the coil packs, wires, and resistors in the short CP leads,

The ECT sensor, removing/inspecting/cleaning/testing,
The IAT sensor, (in the top airbox cover), inspecting/testing,

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I would get those (3) areas Q/A'd and cleared first (Ignition, ECT, AIT) first, before proceeding on with further component (MAF/TPS/IAC) checks,

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Just remember when Q/A'ing to do (1) sensor at a time, then test for positive effect - if you work on (many) areas at once and the problem abates you won't know (which) fix solved the issue..

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Lastly, that Sporty was parked for a long time for a reason (I suspect) - which is why it will require more diagnostic (detective) work on your part to (re)discover "why" it was parked and fix the issue..

Any questions, etc., post back, we will try to help, lots of knowledgeable folks on the forum.

Regards,
GottaCruise

[DavesSpectra]

Sounds like your handy enough with a meter. You might want to add a few long (fused close to relay) wires (1amp OK) from the output of the MAIN and FUEL pump relays into the car. Then find yourself a good ground in the cab... Leave the meter connected to one of the two wires (from main and fuel relays) during your starting attempts ans "see" if either "drops" the +12v down low or to 0v.
The fuse is there to protect the extra wires "if" they happen to touch ground..
Fuses are cheap compared to the wiring harnesses!!

Another thing that it could be is the ignition switch contacts are worn out and may be causing intermittent power drops when they don't make contact...
Hanging wires on the feeds off of that switch and monitoring for voltage drops as you turn the key may help also...

Some things I'd try with a highly intermittent problem like yours...
You could at least rule out some "pieces" if you KNOW they are functioning correctly.
Dave

[Sweet Sephia]

I cleaned the grounds, the three bolts that connect the battery plate to the body, and the did a better job of cleaning the battery and engine ground. In the interior, I cleaned the ground behind the fuse box and on the pass. side I cleaned the two grounds, one was not loose but not tight. I though I found it, but no. The cursed KIA strikes again. I let it idle for about 30 minutes and shut it off to get some lunch. When I tried to start it, it cranked for about ten seconds before it finally started. when it did start it started kind of slowly and there was a noticeable period between when it felt like it was starting to catch and when I felt it was running well enough to let off of the key. It did not take off and immediately accelerate to full idle rmp quickly, sort of stumble a little at first. I plugged my code reader right after this and it said the water temp was 159F and the air intake temp was 75F which does not seem out of the ordinary because the whole underside of the hood was fairly warm. I swapped out the computer coolant and air temp sensors in my first round of problem solving with ones from a parts vehicle that had no drive-ability issues and neither temps were noticeably different. Any thoughts on this? I have to go to class in a little while, I think I will check both the temps when I get home are ten tonight and the vehicle is cold and see how well they match the ambient temp. This will give me a better picture of their accuracy. It is really strange how it starts perfect when cold and hot, but not when warm, proper starting seems contingent upon engine temperature.

[Sweet Sephia]

Thanks for all of the great info guys, it will take me a while to test all of the components and do all of the above checks and let you guys know how I made out. I will finally really get to utilize the new fluke 77-4's capabilities, I am actually kind of excited about this. Thanks again guys have a good day, I am done for the day as I am off to school in a half an hour.

[Sweet Sephia]

Well, I think it's fixed. When I got home from school I decided to check out a few little things that I could do quickly. I checked the battery, body, engine voltage and it all checked out good. Then I decided plug in the computer but it would not connect without it running. The temperatures seemed a little off, I got a reading of 30 for the coolant and 37 for the air with an ambient temperature of about sixteen. This was alarming, but both sensors were swapped out, however they were used. I found the sensors that I pulled because they didn't make a difference when I swapped them. They were within the parameters per KGIS specs. I decided that I would swap the originals back in tomorrow and in the mean time I thought of a test. I warmed the vehicle up to 160 degrees, the temperature which it did not want to start previously at. This time I watched the temperature on the code reader and when it got to 160 I turned it off, and it started right up. This made me think that it was not the temperature per se, but perhaps in the systems involved that started the vehicle when the oxygen sensor is not warm enough to be utilized for mixture control. On my tuned port injected camaro, I know that it has a cold start injector for absolute cold starts, and that it utilizes the MAF sensor until the oxygen sensor is hot enough to take over. I was also thinking that maybe the IAC motor could possibly be binding somewhere in the middle, but could be o.k. on either extreme. I decided to clean the MAF sensor and the IAC motor and I tried twice to warm it completely up to temperature and let it sit for a half an hour. It started perfect both times! I had to try it twice because I didn't believe it the first time. I am not sure which one it was, but it had to be one of the two, or a mixture of both, not sure. It does not randomly die anymore so I am sure that the relays were bad. I appears like I had two problems. Thank you guys for all of your help I could not have figured it out with it.